032 – Understanding and Supporting Neurodivergent Children with Amanda Riley

Anouk:
Welcome to the podcast. Today, we are kicking a series of 4 episodes that are more based on personal life experience from parents or from adults that were emotionally intense kids. And today, we're starting with our neurodivergent family. So the guest that we are interviewing is neurodivergent, and her 2 kids are too. So she will be sharing all about neurodivergence, their diagnosis history, and why they wanted that diagnosis, and what works for them in their everyday life. This guest is Amanda Riley. She combines her passion, lived experience, and 20 plus years of career in change Anouk engagement to raise awareness and acceptance of neurodiversity with individual teams and businesses. 8 years ago, her daughter was diagnosed with ADHD.

Then 5 years ago, she was diagnosed. And finally, her son was also recently diagnosed with what, in their family, they call the 3 a's, anxiety, ADHD, and autism. This kicked off a life changing, intense periods of self discovery for her, which included hyper focusing on neurodiversity and anxiety research for the past 7 years. Wanting to help create a future where her 2 neurodivergent children can thrive fuels her passion. So let's welcome Amanda over on the podcast.

Welcome to Parenting the Intensity, where we'll talk all about how we can drop the general parenting advice that doesn't work with our emotionally intense kids anyway, and let go of the unrealistic expectations society puts on us as parents. Together, we'll find solution and ideas that work for you and your kids. Chances are, deep down, you know what they need.

But you need a little encouragement to keep going on other days and permission to do things differently and help you fully trust that you already are a wonderful parent to your exceptional but challenging kids. Do you read all the thing, listen to all the things, take all the courses? And you know a whole lot of things about parenting, but you struggle to actually apply them in your real life, then you're in luck. I just started the Parenting the Intensity community, which is a monthly group support for parents of emotionally intense kids. And the goal is exactly that, to take all the information you learn from the podcast and from all the other sources and Adapt them so that it work for your child and your family, your reality, because Things can work, but not always the same way for everybody. So the same thing might need to be adapted to work for you. And sometimes it's it's hard to sort through everything to choose the right things that so that you can really enjoy your life and your kids, not always being afraid of the next outburst. You can join by clicking on the link, in the show notes or on the website.

Anouk:
So welcome, Amanda. Really glad to have you here on the podcast. One of the many reason kids are emotionally intense can be that they're neurodivergent. So We'll talk all about that, and I'm really glad to have you on for that today.

Amanda Riley:
Thank you. Thank you. I'm very excited. This is one of my favorite topics, So I I will try to keep my an answers succinct

Anouk:
That's okay.

Amanda Riley:
And multiple.

Anouk:
Great. And can you, introduce yourself and tell us a little bit more of why you do what you do?

Amanda Riley:
Yeah. So, my name is Amanda. I'm based in Victoria, Australia. I run a little business called Thriving with neurodiversity, and, the purpose behind it is to raise awareness and acceptance of Neurodiversity, neurodivergent brains, and how unique and awesome they can be within the workplace. So that's my kind of area of focus rather than educational because that's, I don't know a lot about that, so I stick to my areas. And I am neurodiverse myself. I have, ADHD, d, and I have 2 children, both with ADHD and one with autism. So my driver and my passion behind what I do is to Create that future for them where they don't have to feel ashamed or they don't, have to feel that they have to mask or hide who they really are, and Just trying to flip that negative narrative that frames, you know, the experience of a lot of neurodivergent people.

Amanda Riley:
So that's That's really what drives me, and I just I'm very passionate about it.

Anouk:
Yay. We can hear it in your voice. Yes. Can you explain a little bit more of what neurodiversity and neurodivergence means for those who are not really familiar with those terms?

Amanda Riley:
Yep. Yep. There is, what's been called a a movement, I guess. And I won't go into the history of it all because that's when I forget dates and stuff, so I'm just gonna keep it Briere. That, neurodiversity came out, probably about 10, 20 years ago as a Word to describe people with unique and different Briere, and the way that the the terminology came around is that every person in the world has a different brain. So every person in the world is neurodiverse. So trying to broaden the terminology to Include more people, so there's less of that differences, and there's less of that us and them. So that's where the term neurodiversity kind of comes from.

Amanda Riley:
And neurodivergent is when someone's brain is wired differently enough that they could be or have been diagnosed with, and neuro neurodevelopmental disorder, condition, disability, depends on your your The preference and language of, ADHD, autism, dyslexia, dysgraphia, etcetera. Some people do broaden that Term to include those, under the trauma or PTSD, anxiety, etcetera, model as well because that does affect how the brain works and the wiring of the brain, etcetera too. So, so the the neurodiversity is everybody, basically, and neurodivergent is that smaller group. About 1 in 5, actually, they're saying now, the statistics are, Who, whose brains are different and unique enough that they could be given a diagnosis of one of the neurodivergent conditions.

Anouk:
Mhmm. Okay. So yeah. And I think some are really well known, like autism or ADHD or dyslexia, and some are less well known, definitely, that are less common and less talked about. But, yeah, there's many different ones for sure.

Amanda Riley:
Yes. Yeah. There's dys Calculus and dysgraphia, and there's there's quite a they're all dis, you know, because dis they're all they're all negative in some way, but, yes, you're under the umbrella. But, yes, people do make the top 3, I guess.

Anouk:
Mhmm. And I I love what you're saying. I it they're all negative, Mostly, I would say, maybe not but not even even autism. Like, it's all a a diagnosis of something negative, like a a problem, basically. Yes. And Yes. It's it's like there's a a movement, and there's, like, People want to switch that a little bit, but it's not there yet. So I'm guessing since you're really positive on that.

Anouk:
Right.

Amanda Riley:
I'm trying to get it there. But, just just Briere, Ollie, it it makes to to get the diagnosis, you do have to focus on the negative And how it disables your life and how the condition has impacted your life and how it's made you worse at things or it's made you, anxious or it's just made you, you know, not be as good as you can. So you've to get that diagnosis and the label, You have to kind of focus on the negative because that's when and particularly in Australia, that's, you know, my area. That's when your legal rights And that's when you get the support at school, and that's when you possibly get, government funding, etcetera. So you you kind of have to go through that process first To be to get that support. But then then it's then time to try and flip it a little bit and especially with kids, And even adults, like, adults diagnosed late in life, you know, it's time to focus on some of the positives and the strengths and And, even out the language that we use rather than, you know, disorders and deficits and

Anouk:
Yeah. Yeah. Because it makes it look like That's negative when it comes with those terms of deficit and disorder. But also, as you said, it's important to recognize that In our society, sometimes, it is a deficit based on how things are organized because cool or not, it's made for neurodivergent kids. I know.

Amanda Riley:
Oh, that's a whole another podcast.

Anouk:
But, yeah, I, like, if And and I think that's the the definition also for a disability is based on anyway, here, the definition of disability is based on a social setting. And so if in your society, things are not adapted for you, you are disabled. But it's not the person who's disabled. It's the person in their environment. If you adapt the environment, the person is less disabled or not disabled at all, bay depending on a lot of factor. Depending on yep. Yep. The same as having, like, sidewalk that allow for wheelchair, like, gave lots more mobility to people in wheelchair.

Anouk:
It's a classic example.

Amanda Riley:
Yep. Yeah. And

Anouk:
mhmm. And, I think it's interesting also because what you you mentioned, like, in Australia, that's how it's It's done, and I think it's done mainly that way everywhere. Like, you need to focus on negative aspects to get the diagnosis and the support, but it's also different a little bit from places to places, I find, the way they diagnose and the way they they've seen. But in general, that's it. And you mentioned being like, the the late diagnosis as adults, and I've heard a lot of people being diagnosed when their kids were diagnosed.

Amanda Riley:
Yes.

Anouk:
Is that your study? Yes. Yes. And how how was it for you?

Amanda Riley:
Well, my daughter was diagnosed probably 7 years ago with ADHD. And at that time, we were we were that stereotype family of only boys with hyperactivity have ADHD. We knew nothing about it. Absolutely nothing. So that started for me in a bit of a hyperfocus, and I intensely researched ADHD for about 18 months, and I was just fascinated by the Briere. I'm fascinated by how it worked. And, And then that's when all the moments from my own life kind of came in. And so I think about 18 months or 2 years later, I then was diagnosed With ADHD, and by that time, also social anxiety and generalized anxiety and all the things that, can come along with it, especially Mhmm.

Amanda Riley:
With late diagnosis. And that I I I explained it as the the best Slash most upsetting kind of day of my life kind of thing. I I was very dramatic at the time because it was such a revelation for me. In hindsight, it's like, Yeah. He's up in the language. But it was just amazing for the fur like, I was 4045. So For the first time in my life, I finally began to understand myself.

Anouk:
Mhmm.

Amanda Riley:
And I finally felt that I belonged somewhere. Like, To me, the label meant everything because it gave me that clarity, and it gave me that, oh my god. I'm not what all the negative things I thought about myself for ever. So it it was just it was an eye opener, and it was just yeah. It was it was amazing. It's the best thing that you know, My life since then, has changed dramatically because of that diagnosis.

Anouk:
Mhmm. Yeah. Because it often comes with negative comments from people around, and

Anouk:
Oh, yeah.

Anouk:
Negative comments that we integrate as, like we know it's the same for every children. Children will integrate what they hear about them as their own inner dialogue. So and neurodivergent kids often hear more negative comments than others.

Amanda Riley:
Yep. It's also that sense, you know, that you're different. Like, I always knew I was different.

Anouk:
Mhmm. But I

Amanda Riley:
didn't know how or why. And so I never spoke to anybody about that, not even my husband. It just I just had that constant sense of being different and not fitting in. It was just always there. So getting for me, again, that diagnosis was just like, yep. Okay. Now I can start to make sense of everything. So it's been good.

Amanda Riley:
Yeah. Highly recommend.

Anouk:
And I

Amanda Riley:
think there is something about seeking one. I highly recommend Just at least looking into it because, yeah, it's it's you don't have to tell me one of it I want. You don't have to I'm very open about it, of course, but, it It can be a private thing. It doesn't mean you have to go around telling everyone. It's just but just for yourself, you can start to look into it. Mhmm.

Anouk:
And I I think that's interesting because that's what parents are afraid of diagnosis. Like, it and I did an episode on that subject, but, I think it's something that Often, people will prefer the denial of not or knowing because the diagnosis makes it permanent. Yep. But it's really important what you're saying. Yeah. That it's also it also help us come understand. And from a parent point of view, It help us understand our kids.

Amanda Riley:
Oh, definitely. I can I can support my kids so much better now because I know that I'm similar to them now, and it's been proven that I'm similar to them so I can support them better because I understand?

Anouk:
Mhmm.

Anouk:
You

Amanda Riley:
know? Intrinsically, I can understand. You know? If they're having a meltdown, I can pretty much guess why. You know? So Yeah.

Anouk:
Not all

Amanda Riley:
the time.

Anouk:
They're still kids. Sometimes. Yeah.

Amanda Riley:
They're still kids. Sometimes there's no reason.

Anouk:
Yeah. Or there's no reason that we can understand at all. That makes no sense for us as adult.

Amanda Riley:
Yes. Yes. It's definitely reason for them. Yeah.

Anouk:
Yeah. Yeah. And I and sound like Even if the diagnosis is the same, it's still 2 different persons, so makes sense that sometimes It is.

Amanda Riley:
It is. Yeah. We definitely have our own unique traits, but there's some, of course, They have the whole genetic component of it that's, very similar too. Yeah.

Anouk:
Mhmm. Yeah. That's very, interesting. And, as you said, you can, like, understand them better and deal with, tantrum better. And one of the thing I always say is that with emotionally intense kid, neurodivergent kids, all all basically, all emotionally intense kids. They're in general, their general what I call the general parenting advice, like, air quotes, they don't really work with those kids. Did you find that to be true, or was your experience different?

Amanda Riley:
No. We did. Especially, I think, with before my daughter was diagnosed, she would have a lot of emotional intensity. She'd have a lot of night terrors, associated with the fact that she got overtired and just her brain can shut down at night and just all of these things, which, of course, no one could really help explain to us, but at the time. But my husband is English, and he's and he's a wonderful dad. He's a bit of an old school dad, so he's a bit of a you know, he grew up with a You you listen to your parents. You respect authority, blah blah blah. So the his approach, was just it just hit walls because you have a child that, is not The behavior you're seeing is not caused by what you thought.

Amanda Riley:
So it makes it and you're reacting to what you think happened. And it's it's never that simple with neurodiverse kids, but also if they have, a bit of oppositional defiance or if they have, anxiety and stuff as well, then the command and control approach just doesn't work and actually makes it worse. Yeah. Whereas myself, before I was diagnosed, mine would just I would just end up in pure frustration and, You know, sometimes torment tears because I I

Anouk:
wasn't parenting well, and what's going on? And, you know,

Amanda Riley:
it was Mhmm. We've had many intense We still have intense times. We've had many intense times, and and lockdown was just awful for us because I had 2 kids. Only 1 diagnosed at that stage that just could not function doing schooling online and could not find the motivation, could not find, the energy, and it was just and my husband and I were trying to be the teachers, and it was just like, this

Anouk:
is working.

Amanda Riley:
I think my poor son is only now kind of caught up to his age appropriate education levels because of all of that. So, you know, So no. It's the the traditional I guess that's that's what we knew traditional parenting as. You know? We That was, you know, the the the parent. You respect the parent. The parent is right, to a to a certain extent, but that That doesn't work. You've got to you've got to understand the brain, and you've got to understand your child so much more

Anouk:
Mhmm.

Amanda Riley:
Even if you're divergent. A lot more effort has to go into your part to drop your biases, drop your automatic responses, and just Have the energy and patience to pause and try and understand what's going on when your kid's having a massive, sometimes physical meltdown. Mhmm. So it's not it's it's very different, and parents who don't have neurodivergent kids will just look at you sometimes and So yeah.

Anouk:
They just don't get it.

Amanda Riley:
Which is probably why, we now find ourselves with a lot of Friends who are neurodivergent themselves or have neurodivergent kids because they get it. Mhmm.

Anouk:
They're the

Amanda Riley:
ones that get it. You know? Whereas, other people don't get it, and they're just like, Why isn't he toeing the line? Why is he why isn't he behaving? You know? All the other kids are sitting there waiting. Why and it's just like, Oh, it's just not worth it.

Anouk:
Yeah. And then you feel judged as a parent.

Amanda Riley:
Yeah. And it's just it's just not worth it. It's not healthy for your kid. It's not healthy for you. So you just you automatically kind of head towards those that get it and make you feel welcome and relaxed. And so I highly recommend if you have Emotionally intense kids. Find other parents who have emotionally intense kids and hang out with them.

Anouk:
Yeah. Yes. You won't feel judged because they will understand what you're going through. And

Amanda Riley:
That's so important.

Anouk:
Yeah. Definitely. Definitely Change a lot of things. And I would say, I I I was talking with people when I decided to use those words, Emotionally intense. And since I've been using it, I can tell you instantly if someone has one of those kids or not, just by the way they react to the word. Like, if they react in some way, automatically, they're like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Anouk:
And, like, okay. You have one of those. And if they Yes. I'm like, what does that mean? I'm like, okay. You just don't get it. You have you don't have one of those kids. Like, it's it really describe it well, I think.

Amanda Riley:
Yes. Yes. Because, you every everybody will say, oh, yes. My kid Hates getting off his iPad, and we'll Yeah. You know, we'll get we'll have a tantrum blah blah blah. And that will last for a couple of minutes, then they'll move on. Right? If you have Emotionally Intense kid, as I was explaining to you why I was late to this podcast, I failed to tell my, Son that I was doing this podcast, so his bedroom is next to my office, and I didn't want him in there gaming because he would, you know, Be loud. So I gave him an hour warning, which is my fault, and he rightly told me it was my fault.

Amanda Riley:
Not rightly, but, you know, in his words, my fault, that he couldn't gain during that time and blah blah blah. And that led just led to 15 minutes of shouting and yelling and, just Not physical this time, but sometimes it can be depending on how his day is going and stuff in the night. Mhmm. So they're not the same. You can't go, oh, your mommy Is that because, no, your kid does not do that.

Anouk:
No. And if if you try to tug them out of that, it just doesn't work at all or makes it worse. Yeah. And if you're like, next time, I'm gonna take your console or your iPad or I'm not gonna give it to you, it just makes it even worse.

Amanda Riley:
Yes. Yes. But we still say it. We still because you're kinda in the heat at the moment, you just kinda go, right. I'm taking your Xbox.

Anouk:
Yeah.

Amanda Riley:
We know it's just a fuse for the bomb. You know? But in the heat of it, you just sometimes you forget yourself, and it's just like, So it's it's not perfect, but, you know, we we definitely know how to manage a a bit better now than we used to.

Anouk:
Yeah. And I I would like to know more. Like, I love When parents share what works for them because it can inspire other parents, what was what what's working for you or I work? Because in time, it changes.

Amanda Riley:
It does. It does change. I mean, what used to work with my daughter is now changing because she's now, 13, nearly 14, and hormones have come into it. And Yeah. It's a whole another thing. So I think it it took It took us a little while to understand that, especially for my husband who's not neurodiverse, he's the only one in the family who's, Like, normal. Mhmm. Use that

Anouk:
with egg quotes. Who is?

Amanda Riley:
Yeah. For him, it took him a lot longer because it's, neurodiversity and neurodivergence is known as an invisible disability because you can't see it. Right. It's all in terms of the brain. It's not like a physical disability which you can see when you first look at a person. Mhmm. It's, you know, it's invisible. So It's unless you experience it, it's easy to forget that that person is different and that person has a different brain and that you know? So, It took him a while to kind of get his head around, that, and so we both spent time learning about ADHD and learning about autism learning about anxiety, and just trying to understand certain triggers of our kids.

Amanda Riley:
And It was a lot of work on our part. And, a lot of work on my part first and then me sending him links to articles and going, have you read this? Have you read this?

Anouk:
Yeah. Getting the other parent on board is another story.

Amanda Riley:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's taken a few years. But I think, as an aside, what helped bring him on board was me explaining to him that he has a unique role in our family, and in a very important role, in the fact that he has he he's the one that can step back and just and just Help us come out of some of these neurodivergent emotional areas that we've gone into, and he He works really well with me to help bring me back. Sometimes when I get too intensely involved, especially with my daughter, in in an argument or something, and he'll he'll very rightly call it out and just go walk away. Walk away. Walk away. So he's got a very important role to play, and I think identifying that for him was quite key in us being able to work together, because I get the neurodivergent side, but he also knows what triggers me.

Amanda Riley:
And so,

Anouk:
you know Mhmm.

Amanda Riley:
So it's It's it's hard, but we think we're finally making steps. So it's understanding the kids. It's understanding what their triggers are, and it's Just learning trying to learn to pause. So when my daughter has a meltdown, Just try and not engage her on it, because she wants to engage. She's looking for that dopamine. She's looking for that. She needs someone to be intense back with her. So,

Anouk:
I can totally relate that. I I am one of those here.

Amanda Riley:
Yes. So what, I'm gonna go on to a Intense because there's so much involved. It's not a simple answer. No. So I'll just use my daughter as an example. So If she is seeking, seeking an argument or seeking somebody to just bounce off because She's had a bad day or she's had an argument with a friend or there's the reasons behind it are generally emotions that she does not know how to manage or to talk about. Mhmm. So I I know that that's kind of where it's coming from, and it is quite hard for a parent to step back and kind of go, okay.

Amanda Riley:
There is reasons behind this. She's not swearing at me because she wants to because she's just mean and awful. She's doing it because she doesn't know how to articulate what's going on in her. So We both our kids react to physical stimulation quite well, so we've got quite a big hallway. And so we get a ball, and I go, right. Throw a ball. Come on. Let's go throw a ball.

Amanda Riley:
And sometimes I there's softballs. Sometimes I have to throw it at it a few times, and it hits her for it to suddenly pick it up and throw it back. And I went, okay. I got you now. And then we start throwing that that kind of breaks it down.

Anouk:
I love that. Yeah. My son's

Amanda Riley:
a bit different. He likes he needs that physical wrestling kind of

Anouk:
Mhmm.

Amanda Riley:
Pushing kind of thing, and that helps him kind of get out of it.

Anouk:
Mhmm.

Amanda Riley:
So we kind of break it down. And then When she's ready, I'll go in, and I'll talk to her and go, okay. So what happened today, or where did this come from, or blah blah blah. And, and just That level of understanding I can give her has helped her open up so much. We she now you know, Because she she she she sees a therapist at the moment, and she mentioned to the therapist that I was the the most useful tool in her anxiety toolbox.

Anouk:
That's a compliment. Yeah. It's a compliment.

Amanda Riley:
It is a few more. I think the words were always the biggest tool You know?

Anouk:
We'll we'll take it. Yeah.

Amanda Riley:
You take it. So it's Briere able to treat her As a little bit more of a an equal and just understanding, and it has opened her up so much more because she knows that I get her. She knows that she can trust me, and it's taken years to get to that point. But, I need to summarize that for you, but for the moment, we'll

Anouk:
just leave that there. It's it's a lot Yeah. And I think that's very important and interesting because There's a lot there that could be explained by an, an OT and occupational therapist. Like, Because by all everything you're explaining, there's a lot of, like, interoception, a lot of deep pressure, a lot of, like all of those things are regulating the nervous system in so many interesting ways. Yep. And then there's also that aspect of, coregulation of you being able to stay calm even if she's, like, getting out, and then she can regulate out of you your regulation, basically, and adding that. And also Something that is so important for every children, but especially tweeds and teenagers to have that Open line numb of conversation with their parents, and it's so often not the case. My older ones Our my older one is is 15, and I can tell you that lots of his friends don't have that with their their parents.

Anouk:
It it's Yeah. Kind of rare. And so I think it kind of forces us when we have challenging kids to learn to have that open line of conversation, which which is Very, very precious when they get to the teen years.

Amanda Riley:
It is. It is. I mean

Anouk:
We're kind of having a trial run when they're little of that I

Amanda Riley:
like how you've given it that silver lining because you're right. It is important. I mean, It's really hard. You have really hard days. So Mhmm. Being able to find that silver lining, I guess, is, yeah, is very important. And that kind of it kind of keeps you keeps you going and you know? And so when, yes, when Poppy when when my daughter, everyone knows her That knows me. Doesn't it? When my daughter, told her therapist that, you know, there was that moment where I went, oh, Something's working that you know, I'm I'm the biggest tool in her toolbox.

Amanda Riley:
Something's working. But then I realized that, wow, there's so much more we need to do to support her because She wasn't relying on herself at all. She hadn't Yeah. Didn't have any skills. She was completely relying on me to help calm her down, and I just went, Good to know because now the hard work begins of giving her the skills.

Anouk:
But still, I would say it's the first step that she, she she has something to out regulate against it's you, and she recognize it, which is huge. Yes. Yeah. That was still the first steps to getting there. And, like, we we we often need want to be there, And I'm just saying like, I'm like, okay. Now they they need they need to find ways to regulate themself when I'm not there. And I would say, like, my my 4 year old Needs me to older when she's dysregulated. And sometimes, like, this summer, we were in the car, and she was completely dysregulated and and crying or or seeing in the back back in the back seat.

Anouk:
And I was like, I cannot do anything. I'm driving. Yeah. You know? Like, Ugh. Ugh. Ugh. Something else. I cannot do anything, and she was not able to.

Anouk:
I I just stopped and, like, hold her for, like, 15 minutes so she could come down because It was getting impossible, and I have also an autistic child who was completely getting overwhelmed by the noise.

Amanda Riley:
Sensory. Oh my goodness. Yes. Yes.

Anouk:
And so, you know together. All of them together. Like, you need to do something. You know? So it's it's All of those things that definitely are really important for them to develop how to do it themselves because sometimes you're not there. But, also, I think it's the 1st step if they can do it with you.

Amanda Riley:
The recognition is a key thing because we've tried for you, both of us to help them with their anxiety, and they didn't they weren't old enough to understand the concept of anxiety. And even though, you know, you have the books which Which try and explain it in kids' terms and all this kind of stuff.

Anouk:
Both abstract. It's really abstract. It

Amanda Riley:
is. And both of mine have a little bit of oppositional defiance as well, it's just like, I'm not like that. I don't need to do that. That's not me. You know?

Anouk:
Just Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Get that too. Yeah. It's definitely, complicated, for sure. And I think kids in general don't have Really great insight in themselves. Yeah.

Anouk:
Like, it's not the strength of kids in general. But neurodiverse, it's not. Yeah. It's often even worse because their interoception is often one one of the thing that is impacted, like their ability to understand their inner life

Amanda Riley:
Yes.

Anouk:
Their feelings and their it is even worse in general than Kids are neurotypical, so I think it's even more difficult to have them reflect on things like, I have anxiety.

Amanda Riley:
Yeah. Now it is. It is. Yeah. It's yeah.

Anouk:
It's really complicated for sure. Yeah. Is there any other example that you have that works or used to work for your your family?

Amanda Riley:
I think well, it's an interesting one with my daughter at the moment with We're going through a lot of school refusal with her at the moment. Mhmm. And understanding and learning more and more that she has a lot more sensory challenges than we realized.

Anouk:
Mhmm.

Amanda Riley:
So we've and this is at the moment, I my the way my business is set up is that I work from home a lot, So I'm at home a lot with her. Mhmm. And sometimes I think I'm too available. Mhmm. Did that make sense that I'm that I'm not giving her enough space to find things out for herself or even to fail herself, because I I she's missed so much schooling and so much stuff that I'm just so, I guess, Rightly concerned about where her education is going, etcetera. So, I guess, the the thing for me is trying to find that balance of She has ADHD. She has anxiety. She may well have autism as well.

Amanda Riley:
We're looking into that. So that means her maturity is a bit less in the way she, you know, sees things. I think it's a 2 or 3 year gap Yeah. Behind with regards to the maturity. Mhmm. So how much of it is her ADHD? How much of it is her just being a belligerent teenager? How much of it is actually the school doesn't get her. And and just trying to find that balance. So I think the key thing that I'm trying to do now is To step back a little bit and let her try and work that out as well Mhmm.

Amanda Riley:
And let her see, and having a therapist involved now has been just brilliant for her because she gets an impartial expert helping her see some of her, behaviors and responses in a different light to how I might or the the school might. The school school is amazing, but they don't get it.

Anouk:
They don't get the full No.

Amanda Riley:
I mean, They've set up a special, she's in year 8 over here, so that's 2nd year high school. And she's in a special class where they They pulled together a class of all the kids who don't seem to be functioning well

Anouk:
in the normal school structure.

Amanda Riley:
So, you know, they're trying things. They're doing working really hard. But the teachers are just so stretched. There's not enough teachers, and so their knowledge of anxiety, their knowledge of ASD or any other than neurodiversity is

Anouk:
They're not

Amanda Riley:
trained. No. They're not. They're not. So I think the the key, yeah, the key Thing that we're trying now or I'm trying now is to take that step back and let the school take more of a lead, and I've made that clear with them about when I want them to contact me now. Mhmm. And there's and now a bigger gap. And with the therapist starting to help her see and understand some of her behaviors and responses, so I had to kinda get those in place first Mhmm.

Amanda Riley:
Before I them out.

Anouk:
Yeah. Yeah. It's a process for sure.

Amanda Riley:
Yeah. So I'm now taking a step back. So I'm not as available for all of those little things because I was there all the time. So I think that's and especially now she's 13, nearly 14, that's a really key thing that has to happen. So, we're still in the early stages of this, but it seems to be working a little bit. And and I think I'll keep an eye on it, of course, but I think it will be the best kind of thing is, like, learning when to help and then learning when to step back. And that's kind of what I teach myself at the moment. I can't fix everything.

Amanda Riley:
I don't wanna fix everything. You know? My fast ADHD brain, I'm like, I can do that. I get more involved than I probably need to or should.

Anouk:
Mhmm.

Amanda Riley:
So it's a big learning curve for me to kind of step back and just See what happens.

Anouk:
I think it's interesting because you you said, like to talk about the therapist and this special Class at school, I think it's also key that there's other people that can do the work. Like, they're even if it's not perfect, they're there. They're she She has a a net. Like, she's not you're not just leaving her on herself. No. No. No. You've built, what we like, often we say use scaffolding around neurodivergentatives.

Anouk:
So you build a scaffolding that includes other pupil, and now you're removing your part of but as a tiny bit slowly. One step at

Amanda Riley:
a time. Yeah. Because she needs to be able to trust in others that they will help her. That's a big thing for her. So, yeah, having that scaffolding and because there are things that can support her at school, and her therapist is awesome, and she loves it. So it yeah. It's just taking that it's I think it's more for me now to realize that I've got to kind of, you know, Stop trying to control everything. Yeah.

Anouk:
And I think that's also something that's natural when you have kids that are a bit different. You're more involved in their life. You have to advocate For them, you have to be that parent at school who's always calling, also always, like, behind and asking for things. And so I think it's normal that that like, at 13, in general, it's it's, like, the it's the it's caught. Like, You you've taken that step back normally, but with neurodivergent kids, it can take a little longer. And as you said briefly, they're often 3 years behind in their emotional development. So they they are 13, but in fact, Like, they're 10 in their emotional development, but they are surrounded by people who are 13. I I feel in those years, It gets even more obvious that they are lagging behind a little bit in their emotional development because they they changed a lot.

Amanda Riley:
It does. Very on that point, we were when we, got my daughter's diagnosis. She was in grade 2, so she was 8. We were open with her from the start about you have a different brain. And as I learned stuff, I taught to, you know, teach showing her stuff and because she put everything down to the fact that she couldn't hear properly because she knew she was missing things, and she'd also started to self manage by sitting at the front of the class and all that kind of stuff because she knew she couldn't couldn't hear things properly because as far as she was concerned, because she kept missing stuff.

Anouk:
Mhmm.

Amanda Riley:
And so we were quite open with it With her, even though, you know, 3 years later, she's still going, what does ADHD stand for again? It's just like little things.

Anouk:
Yeah. Telling things doesn't mean they understand or they listen.

Amanda Riley:
No. No. No. Good. No. It doesn't mean she, like, sat there and went, oh, yes. That makes sense. Yes.

Amanda Riley:
Yes. No. That doesn't happen. Enough got through at times that she became quite open about it herself. So she talked about it and, you know, she tells all her teachers, and she's very you know, she's becoming a bit more self conscious now because of the age. But Because she's quite open about it, she now has a small but strong group of friends who are exactly like her. Mhmm. So they are all Different in some way.

Amanda Riley:
They're all unique in some way. Their brains work differently. And so they've kind of all found each other, because and I I do think it is because she took that step of being open and honest herself

Anouk:
Mhmm.

Amanda Riley:
She now has a group around her. So, she's starting to learn about those that won't treat her nicely or won't treat her well Yeah. And That she can be herself a lot more with this small group that she's got, and they all can be because they've all got their own thing.

Anouk:
Yeah. Yeah.

Amanda Riley:
So I think that was kind of giving her That knowledge and that kind of choice, I guess, was quite important. It's it's otherwise, you have a kid at school that just tries to fit in like I did. And you do all the things to fit Intense you never know where you fit in. And you just copy and you mask, and you kinda forget who you are Because you wanna be and look like that cool kid or actually that kid or

Anouk:
that kid or actually not sure which kid, but it not you. Yeah. Yeah. It's not you.

Amanda Riley:
Because you don't you know that you're different, Briere not sure why. So you're just gonna copy everyone around you. And if you fall into Great. Then, you know, that's not good.

Anouk:
No. And I think that's why your work is so important. And before we close, I just wanna Touch on what you said about the fact that she thought she couldn't hear properly. Yes. I find it really interesting because often, we don't Talk about our like, to our kids about diagnosis and things like that because we're afraid to hurt them in some way, but they know Something is wrong, and they will make up yeah. And they will make up something to explain it. And so that's exactly a a super great example that you gave. She thought but it was a nearing problem.

Amanda Riley:
And if you don't if you don't seek a diagnosis and get get the official label, others will label them. They're the naughty kid. They're the hyperactive kid. They're the kid that's off with the fairies. They're the one that can't study. They they will get labels from other people. Yeah. Because, you know, if they're different,

Anouk:
then

Amanda Riley:
they will get a label, and it would not be a positive one. Nope. So I guess that's not another reason I'm I'm quite a, strong supporter, or an advocate for at least seeking a diagnosis so you at least have the choice and the power to do what you want with it Rather than still just let your kid sit there in the unknown because they do know they do know they are different. Yeah. You know? They're they're super observant. They know that they're different.

Anouk:
Yeah. It's just that they don't know why and how and what's going on. And Yeah. A bit like the classic parents are getting separated and kids are thinking it's their fault. If you don't explain it to them, they they will still think that is The same for diagnosis. If you don't explain to the kids what's happening, they will explain it themselves. And if they get a lot of negative comments about themselves, they will playing it with them. They will think they are bad.

Anouk:
They will think they cannot behave. They will think they're distracted and, like, cannot study and because they were told that again and again and again.

Amanda Riley:
In their developmental years, they copy the language around them.

Anouk:
Mhmm. And that's

Amanda Riley:
that's shape their perception of themselves. Yeah.

Anouk:
Yeah. So, yeah, it's very important to do like, the work you do to raise awareness so that people are more aware of those things. Is there anything we didn't touch on that you wanted to share today?

Amanda Riley:
No. I don't think so. I can't think of anything right now.

Anouk:
I'll come back. Once once we

Amanda Riley:
finish, I'll go, oh, I should've said

Anouk:
If there's a lots

Anouk:
of thing, we can do a a sequel later. Is there any something I can talk about. I'm sure. Is there any resource that was in full for you or is helpful for you that you would like to share with the community?

Amanda Riley:
Yeah. Definitely. When I first started research, I Looked everywhere, but I think, attitude.org or attitude mag oh, yeah. It's attitude mag Mhmm. Is an amazing resource for ADHD, but it also links into the, comorbidities of dyslexia and anxiety and all these is not just pure. It just it, and it covers the amount of resource and effort and time that goes into all of their articles. There's every single topic you can want, and it's all data driven and research driven, but written in a way that's easy to understand. And they have their research papers or they have their short articles, and they have a whole or they have videos.

Amanda Riley:
So they're they've worked well to cater for the different brains.

Anouk:
True. I've never even realized that, but that that's true. They don't their public is

Amanda Riley:
Yes. Yes. Although their podcast usually Boys hit an hour, and that's the only thing I don't get.

Anouk:
Yeah. That's true. More than an hour often. That's why I'm trying to keep mine shorter, but it's hard.

Amanda Riley:
It is. It is. And then from an autism perspective, we found, a chap called Tony Atwood who, once again,

Anouk:
It's more

Amanda Riley:
of the old school Asperger's Inn, so more of the, you know, I'm not gonna The whole label thing about high functioning, etcetera, but it's more, of that Asperger's end. And I'm not sure if it's the same where you are, but Autism over here when it's diagnosed, you're you're given a level 1, 2, or 3? Yeah. It's the same here. So he focuses more on that level one end because that's Where, our son sits. So that's that's what I know about that. But he, once again, explains things. He does it so well and in plain English and and simple terms, and it's he's really good. So that that was Tony Atwood.

Amanda Riley:
He's really good, at, helping explain the differences and why it happens because, autism is very different to In some areas, there's a lot of overlap, but autism is quite different to ADHD in the way the brain works. So it was very interesting for us to be able to Hear it in those simple terms and read it in those simple terms. So he was really good too.

Anouk:
Get a a little window in the brain of a child that you might have trouble understanding otherwise.

Amanda Riley:
Yeah. Yeah. And then you can educate everyone around you.

Anouk:
Exactly. With grandparents. Starting with yourself than your kids than in other people. Like grandparents. For sure. And, where people can find you, and how can they learn more from you or work with you? Yep.

Amanda Riley:
I I'm on LinkedIn, under my name, Amanda Riley, and that's where I talk a lot about the awareness and acceptance of, neurodiversity within the workplace. And I also have a website called thriving with neurodiversity and Anouk Instagram. And that's where, you'll find lots of resources. I've actually just launched an ADHD starter kit, for recently diagnosed adults Because that's the biggest thing I'm finding when I work with recently diagnosed adults, and for myself is like, where do you start?

Anouk:
Yeah.

Amanda Riley:
You got your diagnosis, but Now what? So that's that's a free resource I've kinda thrown up there. Just my 7 years of hyperfocus on Neurodivergence and ADHD. I've kinda pulled out all of the best links and the best podcasts and the best other things to kinda pull it all together. Yeah. And, I I mean, I know we're talking about, kids and stuff, but it's there's some useful things in there too, about that, but also for Adults who are, you know, maybe looking at their kids than looking at themselves. Mhmm.

Anouk:
Yeah. Yeah. And when you're in the You're getting the diagnosis, and you've been told so many things, and then the parents Intense there's at least 1 parent who recognize themselves in that description.

Amanda Riley:
Yep. Yep. It's especially, especially ASD, it's one of the most, genetic it is the most I I get the words wrong. It is the most genetically inheritable of the neurodivergence disease.

Anouk:
Mhmm. Yeah. Because, like, it Like, autism, for example, can be created by other things like, premature need, for example, which would have nothing to do with with the genetic. It's just your premature. That's life, and you can use that. So there's other things that can Briere, autism. But, Yeah. ADHD is generally just genetic based.

Anouk:
Yes. So yeah. Well, thank you very much for being here today. It was very fun to talk to you and hear all your tips and and information. So really glad you're you've been here. Thank you.

Amanda Riley:
Yes. Thank you so much.

Anouk:
It's been fun.

Anouk:
I'm so glad you joined me today and took that time out of your intense life to focus on finding a new way to parent that works for you and your kids. To get the episodes that soon as they drop, make sure to subscribe to the podcast. And please leave a rating in review so other parents can find it too. Also, check out all the free resources on my website at family moments dot ca so you can take action on what's the most important for you right now. And take a deep breath. Keep going. We're all in this together.