022 – Intensity and Attachement in Adoptive and Foster Families – With Angie Grandt

Anouk:

Welcome to the podcast. November is adoption month. And to end the month, we are going to tackle the subject of having emotionally intense, kids in a foster or adoptive family. Although a lot of what we will be talking about also applies to any emotionally intense kids. To, talk about that subject, we have Angie Grant, who's an adoptive and bio mom, former foster mom, adoption coach, speech therapist, and has worked in the autism field for a couple of decades. She has an extensive training and experience in trauma and attachment as well as early childhood development. She knows firsthand that raising children who are difficult to connect with and often displays challenging behaviors take a huge toll on parents. This can often leads to shame, anxiety, depression, isolation, and a growing loss of hope for both parents and child.

Anouk:

Angie specialize in helping postadaptive parents who are overwhelmed by behaviors, feel a victim in their own home, and are ready to throw in the towel. She's passionate about coaching adoptive parents who worry, frustration, and resentment to tackle behaviors and build lasting connection with their children so that they can create all peace and joy in their home. So as I said, not just for adoptive and foster parents, but that will be the special topic of today. Welcome to Parenting the Intensity, where we'll talk all about how we can drop the general parenting advice That doesn't work with our emotionally intense kids anyway. And let go of the unrealistic expectations society puts on us as parents. Together, we'll find solution and ideas that work for you and your kids. Chances are, deep down, you know what they need. But you need a little encouragement to keep going on other days and permission to do things differently and help you fully trust that you already are a wonderful parent to your exceptional but challenging kids.

Anouk:

Do you read all the things, listen to all the things, take all the courses, and you know all of things about parenting, but you struggle to actually apply them in your real life, then you're in luck. I just started the Parenting the Intensity community, which is a, monthly group support for parents of emotionally intense kids. And the goal is to exactly that, to take all the information you learn from the podcast and from all the other sources and adapt them so that work for your child and your family, your reality. Because things can work, but not always the same way for everybody. So the same thing might need to be adapted to work for you. And sometimes it's hard to sort through everything to choose the right things that so that you can really enjoy your life and your kids, not always being afraid of the next outburst. You can join by clicking on the link, initial notes or on the website.

Anouk:

Welcome, Angie. I'm glad you're here today. We'll talk about the reality of having intense kids in a foster or adoptive family. So can you start by introducing yourself and maybe why you do what you do?

Angie:

Yeah. For sure. So thank you so much for having me on your podcasts. So my name is Angie Grant, and I am an adoption coach. I'm also a speech therapist. I work in early intervention, which here in Wisconsin where I live, that means I work with children from birth through their 3rd birthday. I do evaluations and then work with parents to help them catch up or learn skills that they need. So, anyways, But what kind of led me to being an adoption coach and being here with you on your podcast is that in addition to my career.

Angie:

I'm also an adoptive mom and a bio mom. So when my bio daughter was about 10, we adopted our son who was 5 at the time. And prior to adopting him, I had worked in special education. I've worked with kids with autism For, at that point, I think probably 10 or 12 years, and I felt so prepared to handle any behaviors that came. Right? I mean, all I knew was working with kids who had unusual or challenging behaviors, so I felt I I felt overprepared in the big scheme of foster parents. I thought I knew exactly what to do. Plus, I dove into a bunch of trainings about trauma and attachment.

Anouk:

Mhmm.

Angie:

So we became licensed foster parents and had a couple of kids in our home. And just as the last child was in our home through the foster system. Our son joined our family. And we knew that Considering he joined our family at 5 years old, we knew that he had had a tricky past already, you know, and we we learned quite a bit about Where he came from and what he had experienced. Of course, nobody can ever really know everything he experienced, but

Anouk:

No.

Angie:

We knew. And so I I felt really prepared. Like I said, so many trainings, so many books. So, you know and we got him involved in therapy right away, which is around here, the number one recommendation is To get kids into therapy. So we did all of that and I was actively involved in his therapy sessions. But despite my best efforts to To show up for him the way that I promised, it just kept getting harder. And so we can talk a little bit more about that and kind of why that is, but Mhmm. The only recommendation for me as mom was to find a therapist.

Angie:

And I I tried it, but That wasn't what I needed. I didn't need a therapist to work through my past. I needed somebody to help me create a future with my son. Mhmm. And I didn't know that coaching existed. And I think coaches like myself, I'm a certified mindset coach, and I specialize in working with deaf parents, but I don't know anybody else that does what I do. And so I ended up hiring a a mindset coach for other reasons. And I quickly realized when I was working with her that, holy cow, this was exactly what I needed when things were so, so, so hard with my son.

Angie:

So I'm really fired up about helping families to get the help that they need so that they can keep their head in the game when things get really tricky with their kids.

Anouk:

Yeah. And I think I love that you said you felt really prepared and ready, but the reality is not the same. In a work setting, 1 hour a week with a child is completely different than having a child in your house 247.

Angie:

Yeah. Well and, you know, like, in professionally, we're trained to be compassionate but to have boundaries. Right? Like,

Anouk:

Some some kind of distance with and we don't get involved too emotionally, which makes it Yeah. Way easier to keep a boundary, like, around a child.

Angie:

Yeah. But you're not supposed to do that with your kids. Nope.

Anouk:

No. Oh, and and and you cannot. It's not your job as a parent to do that. And, yes, you need to keep boundaries, but in a completely different ways. You're not supposed to not get attached.

Angie:

Correct. Correct.

Anouk:

So it's really a different experience for sure that From being a professional. Right? And that that's very interesting. Like, I I remember working with I was in a, like, new baby clinic as a volunteer, and that mom came and she was a pediatrician. Like, she had she'd been a pediatrician many years, and she came and she was, I wanna call back all of the parents of my patient and tell them I'm sorry about what I said because I had no idea what I was saying.

Angie:

Oh, yeah. It man, it makes a difference when you're in that mom role all of a sudden.

Anouk:

Yeah. Exactly. So So it's not the same when you're in the professional seat than when you're in the parent's seat. For sure there's lots of things that are different. Yeah. Definitely. And I think it's easy for most people, the general population. It's easy to guest that an adoptive child or foster child, especially an older one, it's easy to think that they add some sort of trauma and that Can impact their behavior and their emotion, the way they deal with their emotion, and that we can easily see how they will be emotionally intense because of those trauma.

Anouk:

When you have those in your life, since it's trauma and you don't have any control to what happened before, is there any hope? Is there anything we can do?

Angie:

Oh, definitely. And I think that it's it's a 2 part system. Right? Like, There's just so much evidence to show that kids who have experienced trauma need to work through that trauma. And there are specialists who really focus on Providing specific therapeutic techniques to help kids work through trauma. But I also feel so strongly that if the trauma and I didn't make this up, but, you know, experts will also agree that when a child has experienced trauma in those 1st few years of life, it is imperative that there be an adult that they can build A safe, trusting bond with.

Anouk:

Mhmm.

Angie:

And that's what I promised to my son. Right? Like, I promised we're gonna bring you to our home. And Not that I said those words out loud necessarily, but kind of. Right? You know, we're we're going to adopt you and you're you know, we want you to join our family and we're gonna love you forever. You're You're our son. Mhmm. So that's what I promised to him. But like I said is it is in the nature of a child who has experience to disrupted attachment in those 1st couple of years.

Angie:

Those experiences that disrupted attachment changes their brain chemistry, changes The actual structures of parts of their brain. And what that ends up looking like is a child who, will sometimes go to really extreme measures to Test new attachments Mhmm. Which my brain knew that. My brain knew that he was going to test whether or not we loved it. My brain knew that he was going to Engage in behaviors to to make sure we were worthy. Right?

Anouk:

Mhmm.

Angie:

And and I don't it's not a conscious choice on his part. I don't wanna do it sound like that. It's it's it's how his brain changed because of his trauma and Mhmm. The disruptions. So I knew that, But it was really hard for me to keep my heart in the game when

Anouk:

You're pushed back.

Angie:

Mean, it's like a daily yeah. And, You know, like, as parents with our biological kiddos, we we all get a little bit of that, I hate you, mom, or Mhmm. You're not my parent. But when it's a daily thing and when my if my daughter were to say something like that, my bio daughter Mhmm. I would know she's just saying it out of frustration. When my son would say it, there was real belief in his voice. Right? Like, he believed that that we didn't love him. He believed that he wasn't worthy of a family.

Angie:

And that hurts. It's really hard. And so you can talk yourself out of it all you want. But, you know, as a mom who Who cares and loves? It definitely wore on me over

Anouk:

time. Yeah. And even when it's our bio kids and we know it's just frustration, it it it still hurts. You know? Yeah. Yeah. But but even if an adoptive child doesn't believe it, you, I think, as the parent, Already has that doubt that is that child gonna love me? Am I gonna be able to it's a doubt that we can have as a bio parent all the time, but it's an added layer When the child is coming in your house, he might have known his previous mom. Like, you can compare. When your Bio Kids says you're the worst mom.

Anouk:

You're like, yeah, but you cannot compare. You know? Yeah. You just have that one, and so, that's it. But if they knew their previous parents and or they even add foster families. So you might be the 5th mother that they that child add in some way. Yeah. Yeah. Something to compare you to.

Anouk:

So it brings doubt in your mind also even if It's not really what it means. It might be sometimes, but it might not be. But it definitely might bring doubt in your mind as a parent.

Angie:

Yeah. One another thing that that I was thinking about as you were talking too is that as much as when you make that decision to be a foster parents. And I can't speak for everybody. I can only speak from my own experiences and what other moms have told me, but when you make that commitment to be a foster parent or even an adoptive parent, On the surface, you make this promise to just unconditionally love these kiddos and give them the best situation. But I I can say so honestly that part of me put up a little bit of a wall around my heart because I knew that The foster kiddos were supposed to go home. That's the plan. Right? Yeah. And so to just fully let them into your heart is a scary thing to do.

Angie:

Right? We're human. And even in the case of adoption, I never feared that some court was going to get involved with my bio daughter and and change my custody of her. But that was a fear with my son long after the adoption was finalized. You know, our family went through Which is pretty common. There was this smooth plan for adoption, and then something happened the day after the termination of parental rights That ended up disrupting the plan for adoption and drug it out for 9 months beyond when it was supposed to.

Anouk:

Oh, wow.

Angie:

And that Yeah. And it was it was so unexpected. It was so out of the blue. It quadrupled the the cost of adoption Wow. And just The emotional toll that that took

Anouk:

Mhmm.

Angie:

When, you know, we planned on I think the termination was in August, and we were supposed to adopt in November. So just a couple months turnaround, But we weren't able to adapt until the following July, so almost a full year later. And the emotional toll that that took of that fear of, oh my gosh. I'm falling in love with this little boy. And what if he has to go back? And as a human, I I I know that I put up a little wall around my heart because I didn't wanna be I didn't wanna be hurt. You know? At the same time, no

Anouk:

one really needed

Angie:

to love him.

Anouk:

Yeah. You need to. But at the same time, humanly, it it's kind of an old choice to some extent.

Angie:

Yeah. Yeah. Emotional heart. You know? Yeah. And once the adoption was finalized, it wasn't, oh, okay. Well done. Everything's working. You know? There was still that lingering fear for many years layers of Of course.

Angie:

What if another shoe drops? What if something else happens and this all changes?

Anouk:

Mhmm.

Angie:

So many layers of complexity in being being a foster parent or an adoptive parent in addition to all of the trauma that these kids have experience and what they bring to the relationship.

Anouk:

Mhmm. Yeah. For sure. And I I find it really interesting. I've worked a lot with parents that I've, medically complex kids, and I think it's a similar when you came so close to lose your child many times, sometimes, At some point, it it it's kind of a proactive mechanism and necessary to survive to try to protect yourself to some extent and put a certain wall, but you cannot, but you need to. And, like, it's a very pull and push thing that is Yeah. It's hard for sure and adds to Once it's already complicate being a parent is already complicated enough. You know? Yes.

Angie:

Yes. For sure.

Anouk:

Don't need those added layers, but, yeah, life is what it is.

Angie:

Yeah. I can say, the one thing that I think helped me, I don't know, succeed, There's one really key strategy that I've been sharing a lot with my clients, and I I have a group where I do trainings every week. But one thing that as As I've been reflecting back so my son is almost 18 now. He's gonna be graduating very soon. And we've had a really tricky relationship the last couple of years, it's been really hard, honestly. But when I reflect back on what went really well and what I feel like was A skill that I had really honed on that helped me be as as supportive and as Loving as I could be to him was really solidifying my skill to respond versus react.

Anouk:

Mhmm.

Angie:

And when you're re when you have a child with any kind of behaviors you had talked about kids being emotionally intense. Right? Yeah. When When kids have any kind of behaviors, it's so easy and almost instinctual to respond to what's right in front of you, to just react to the behaviors, to give a consequence, to Yell at them, to argue back, to whatever it might be, and and to really have a A planned response, but not a planned consequence. That's not what I mean. But to respond to their needs

Anouk:

Mhmm.

Angie:

In the moment Instead of reacting to their behaviors. And what it really boils down to is having a vision of what you want your family to look like And really holding true to responding to that in the moment. So say, for example, that your vision is that you wanna I have a happy, connected family that you can sit down and play games together or enjoy a nice dinner together. If that's what you want your family to look like, But your child's screaming at you and saying, hi. Hey, Chew. You're not my mom. To respond to your child As if that goal is already achieved instead of responding to the behavior. So responding with, I love you so much, and I know you just want my love, and I'm here for you, and can I give you a hug, instead of the, like, why are you yelling or you can't talk to your sister like that? So really Having a clear vision of what you want your family to look like or what you want your relationship to look like and respond as if that's already in place And not respond to the behaviors in front of you.

Angie:

To me, that was the most powerful tool that I had, not only for my own sanity, quite honestly, sleep. But, also, that really was what kept me connected with him because he didn't. I really genuinely think he didn't have control over his behaviors most of the time. You know, when it looked like and other people would often say that, He's making a choice, and he's being manipulative, and he's this and he's that. And I just kept saying but We we can't possibly know that. We can't possibly know what's going on in his head or where he hurts or how he hurts. And so why not assume that he needs love more than he needs consequences?

Anouk:

Mhmm.

Angie:

And my parenting style was not appreciated by a lot of people. He needs more consequences. He needs more whatever. Yeah.

Anouk:

I I just wanna pause pause here because I think that what you just said is something that is experienced by So many parents of emotionally intense kids, no matter the reason why, they are emotionally intense. Those kids need support, love, and understanding. They don't need consequences. And most of the time, when we add the consequences on top of a yelling child, we'll just make them yell more, and it's just Aggravating the situation. It's just escalating in its worst. I think that what you just said is super important. That's what they need, and it's hard because that's not what We're told we should be doing. And last week, I was told that for my 13 year old, that I'm like, I know I know that's not the case, though.

Anouk:

Like, that person was a professional, and she left. And it was the last time that she would come to my house because I know that It's not the way I need to help my child because I know my child, but I think it's very hard to get to that point. She's 13 now. If she had been 3, I would have done what this the the the professional said I should be doing. So Mhmm. Staying our ground and and continuing to do exactly what you did is hard because it's not what we're told. It's not what and people are judging, and You look like that parent who cannot control their child with air quotes for the Yep. For the listeners.

Anouk:

So, Yeah. It it's very, very hard. So, like, that's wonderful. I think we will to do it from To get it going, I'm sure there are some things that it didn't work. But Oh, yeah. But to keep that goal. And I love the idea to have that goal or that ideal family in mind that can look anything. It it's your goal.

Anouk:

You know what I mean? It's not Yeah. It's just your personal goal for your family and having that in mind. And It's kind of an anchor to help keep you grounded in those moments. That's what I want, and it's helping me stay grounded and connected with that child and answering to their needs instead of their behavior. So I love that idea of having that ideal family or relationship in mind. It's interesting.

Angie:

Yeah. Yeah. Like you said, I did not I did not get it right all the time by any means. It was normal. And I know that over time, I got less and less good at it actually, And that's why, like I said, I needed a coach to help me keep my head in the game because I I lost sight of what wanted our family to look like because as the behaviors grew, they clouded my vision, really, of what what I wanted our family to look like. And I didn't know that I had a choice to not be so obscured by the k. But now I know, and I help families with that. But, yeah, it it's such a powerful tool when you use it well to really just, like, stop things in the moment.

Angie:

For yourself, for your child, it's it's pretty crazy.

Anouk:

Yeah. Yeah. And there's, like, 2, 3 question that comes back again and again, and that's one of them. Like, how to stay calm ourself when our children are losing it completely. So I think that's a great idea. Like, there's There's no one answer to that. I think it it depends on each person, but I love that all the guests are bringing their own ideas of how to stay calm or how to calm their kids, which are probably the most requested thing I get. And I love that all those ideas so that people can try them and see what works because I think often it's the best ideas are coming from other parents who are living through it and not by professional who will have it left threat.

Anouk:

You touch about, attachment also a bit. And I'm guessing in adoption, it's a lot of based on attachment because it's kids that had difficult attachment story for sure. So what you're doing is based on that with your client when you do coaching?

Angie:

Yeah. And really, my focus is on mindset. I am a certified mindset coach, and so I really help my clients to Shift their mindset because, like we had talked about a little bit earlier, is as mom, there are so many Complicating factors that make it hard to for us as mom to stay attached, let alone having a child who has experienced a disrupted attachment. And research shows that if a child doesn't develop a healthy attachment during those first 2 or 3 years that can really show us problematic behaviors as they get older. Mhmm. And, you know, we see this with kids Who have been in the NICU, who maybe didn't have a disrupted attachment, but they spent a substantial amount of time In the NICU where they didn't get that really early bonding, even with the most loving, most attentive parents, when they're they're hearing these machines and things are Scary and they've been intubated. I mean, that is trauma for kids

Anouk:

Yeah.

Angie:

Or can become a traumatic experience for them. And So there are so many factors that can make it so hard for kids to build strong attachments. And so when I'm working with parents, I'm really focusing on providing them really key tools and strategies To not only work on their mindset. Like you said, how do you keep your cool when the kids are losing it? You know? So I really help them with very specific tools To keep their cool and to really be present for their kids with also some specific trainings about trauma and How that potentially impacted their child's development. Some of the families that I work with are adoptive and bio parents or foster parents. They've had a mix, sense. And so really helping them see that it isn't just that, you know, maybe you became mom in their life a little bit later, but it's also physiological changes to their brain and what that can look like and how can you respond differently. So we go through really specific strategies help them really be present is really Yeah.

Anouk:

Yeah. Kinda what it sounds to. Which is which sounds super easy, but is not at all. It's not. So especially when we have so many things running in our head as parents, we think of so many things. We have a to do list that is never ending. And add on top of that, the child that can have some challenge by themselves.

Angie:

I remember too when when my son was, I don't know. He's probably 7, 8, 9, somewhere in there. And he was in some pretty intensive programming, and so I was going to his sessions every week. And One of the recommendations from his therapist, which I just appreciate so much, but it was missing a really key part. But the recommendation was To just keep letting my son know that you love him no matter what. He said, just keep saying it. Just say I love you no matter what. I love you no matter what Even if he's yelling at you.

Angie:

So I was like, I can do that. Easy peasy. Right? But he didn't tell me that I also had to believe it. Yes. And so so what ended up reflecting back this wasn't super obvious to me in the moment, but reflecting back, what I realized was my son, I I think it's a a child who has experienced trauma tends to be really good at reading people in general. I mean, of course, that's not the case with all kids.

Anouk:

But No. But often, they will be, like, overaware of what's happening. And yeah.

Angie:

Yeah. That hypervigilance intense Really so I now look back, and I think he knew what I was thinking before I knew what I was thinking. He knew what I was feeling. And he used to ask me things like, why are you mad, mom? And I'm like, I'm not mad. But I was, actually. I just, like, I'd convinced myself I wasn't. But, anyways so In looking back, I was saying those words to him over and over again. He's saying you know, trying to pull from his vocabulary the worst things he could say to me.

Angie:

And I would just keep saying, like, I love you anyways, buddy. I love you. I love you no matter what. I'm not going anywhere. You just say these scripts over and over again. But over time, I believed myself less and less and less. And I now know that he knew that. Mhmm.

Angie:

He knew. He sensed that I wasn't believing myself even though my words never changed. I don't even think my tone changed, But I know that my belief in myself changed. I knew that as I was really contemplating the scary idea of Him not being able to stay with us because things got so so hard. Mhmm. I knew that I wasn't believing myself anymore, and he he knew too.

Anouk:

Yeah. And I think that's very important, especially when the child is dysregulated. And I've talked about that with some other guest. They don't hear our words. They hear our intent the tone maybe, but the intention and the energy that we have behind. At the same way as when someone is yelling at you, you don't necessarily hear their words. You you're just a yelling. You know?

Angie:

Yeah. Yeah.

Anouk:

It I think that's very important that it's not just what what we're saying basically in those moment don't really matter. Because they're not really hearing the words. They're hearing the intention behind the words. And if you don't believe yourself in what you're doing, that definitely Will carry over in some way in those moments. Because he doesn't hear you're loving him. He ears he might hear it partially, but it's called, like, cognitive dissonance also because he knows that's not true because he feel it's not true. But it's like you're lying at the same time.

Angie:

Yes. Yes. Yeah. And I didn't know that at the time, but now that I know that, now I can help families to Really work on their own belief Mhmm. So that there is a match between what they're saying and what they're feeling and that energy that they're putting into this situation with their kids.

Anouk:

Yeah. And we we don't have to address that if it's too a delicate subject. But I just wanna ask because what you said, When you have intense children, any parents, I think, sometimes is totally discourage and thinks that They they cannot do it anymore. It's it's just too much. Yeah. I'm guessing it might be worse when it's an adopted child or foster child because especially a foster child because there's kind of a door for that. If there's, like, an option to send a child back to some extent, which is not an option when it's your biogen. There's no way

Angie:

we can find it. Yeah. And, you know, I I even said that often to people at that time when things were at their worst really is I would never even consider sending my bio daughter anywhere. But I do think a huge part of it is, as I had described earlier, there was always this wall up around my heart Because I felt like I needed to protect myself Mhmm. And then which probably just made everything worse. I I'm well aware of that.

Anouk:

Yeah. But it's not something that we do on purpose.

Angie:

Yeah. But then when things got so, so hard and police and therapies and psychiatrists and all of the things. And it was just so hard, and I'll never forget the day my son was in this intensive program, and I would go every week for these parent trainings, and they split up the groups of parents based on the child's need. And I was the only one in the adoptive parent group. So it was just me and the therapist. And she was so lovely. And I'll never forget one day she said, have you considered that Your home might not be his forever home. And I just broke down crying, and I said that I can't think about that because if I was thinking about it, I'm I'll see it as a possibility, and I I can't do that.

Angie:

I made this promise to him. And she She said, but it really might be. And I just you know, I, like, dug my heels and, like, oh, we're not we're not talking about that. But it really was from that moment that I was what if, like, what if I'm not strong enough? What if I you know, what if what if? Mhmm. You know? It it was such an awful, awful thing because as an adoptive parent, it's such a big commitment. You can't, like, accidentally become an adoptive parent. It's a lot of work, actually.

Anouk:

But some people end up like that when, like, someone dies and they end up with control of the family.

Angie:

Like, it does happen, though. Let's be honest. But true. True. True.

Anouk:

But it's not the most often time that's not what happens. Yeah.

Angie:

Yeah. And you you really do make this commitment to the social workers, to to this child, sometimes to the parents. You know? I mean, we we met His bio mom, our son's bio mom, and made this promise to her to love him and provide him a good home. And so then to think behaviors were out of control, and I I did not know what else to do. It was it was a really scary thought to have that he might not be with us forever.

Anouk:

Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. Because it's an option in some way that you don't have when it's your it it's still At some point, yeah, it can be an option even with your bio kids, but it kinda needs to be way past the level. So, yeah, I think it's kind of not an option for most parents. And that I think is something that's why I asked Because I think it's that kind of thing we don't talk about.

Angie:

Yeah. Oh, I agree.

Anouk:

But it's still there somewhere, and it's in every parent's head once in a while when things are very bad to I just cannot do it anymore.

Angie:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And even, you know, like, we at the time when things were so rough, I mean, I access every program that But I knew that was available to us so that I could get respite for us and signed him up for camps just so that I could try to maintain placement in our home. Mhmm. But even then, I no matter who he was with or what camp he was at or what program he was in, I still never felt calm when things got so rough because I worried about him Mhmm. His safety. I worried about other kids' safety and what he might do because I knew that by sending him away, wherever it was, I knew that that also triggered attachment difficulties with him.

Angie:

Right? Like, mom doesn't love me. She wants me to go away for a while. I I I mean, he would say those words.

Anouk:

Yeah.

Angie:

So I trust that's what he was thinking. And it it was such a tricky time for us And so much shame as a mom who just wants to love and do the best I could. There was so much shame And regret and resent and just so many ugly feelings during that whole time that no mom ever wants to feel.

Anouk:

No. For sure. And I I'm sure in those situation also, you think of your other child, and you're like, why did we do that to that other child too?

Angie:

Oh, yeah. Definitely.

Anouk:

Yeah. And I think that's, like, something we can all all add. Like, even if it's not adoption, if you add a child and things are going well, and then you get another child and things are way harder. You're like, why did I decided to have another child? No wonder how you got that child.

Angie:

Oh, yeah.

Anouk:

So, yeah, sometimes it's something that you have that responsibility to all the the child you have in your house to offer them a safe and supporting environment. And sometimes it's not possible because 1 or more children makes that environment unsafe for others. And it can be in small ways also. It can be subtle, and sometime it's not. Sometimes it's very clear.

Angie:

So true.

Anouk:

Definitely. And I love what you said. There's so many ways to stay calm in those moments even in what you describe is very intense and extreme situation, but there's hope, basically.

Angie:

Oh, definitely. And I can say, of course, I I would love to help any of your listeners who are feeling stuck or frustrated, But just know that I not only coach the families that I work with, but I also have a very specific curriculum that I walk them through because I know that At least the way that the people around me, my life, we were raised in such a way to feel like When things aren't going well, it's because of something outside of us. Right? If my relationship with my son isn't going well, it's because of his behaviors. If my relationship with my spouse isn't going well, because of how he's acting, but the truth is that I can be happy no matter what and goes back to that example of respond versus react. Right? Like, it It would be easy in the moment as he's screaming at me and saying all these things. It would be easy to be, see, this is why I'm so frustrated. This is why I'm so angry. This is why I'm so whatever.

Angie:

But But he doesn't get to decide how I feel. I choose that, and it does it takes persistence and dedication to really shift to the way that you're thinking about things, but it is totally, totally possible. And you can't possibly show up for your kids in the way that you want to In that loving and compassionate way, when you don't have control over your own thoughts and emotions, when you're feeling like, See, this is why I'm so frustrated. Well, there's no healing from that space. There's no moving forward from that space.

Anouk:

There's no support that you can offer to your child when you're feeling. And I think that's a very important part also because we can often and so easily feel that frustration and that hopelessness. Like, we're powerless, and we cannot do anything because we don't have control and even felt bullied in our own house by our children. Yeah. Like, I've heard that many time. I felt that too. It it sometimes it's so intense that that's what hour feeling, but you we can still make that choice not to even if the situation leaves us to feel that way. And and Yeah.

Anouk:

It it can sound absurd to some people. Like, depending on where they are right now in that stage, it can sound so foreign and so impossible to not feel that way. And Yeah. But, like, it is possible. I remember clearly a moment when I realized that I adlep the situation. I don't wanna say that was my chat. It was really the situation made me feel like a victim in my own house. Okay.

Anouk:

That's stopping today. Yeah. And today, I'm changing things, and I didn't necessarily change things with my children. I change things and just as you're saying, the way I was looking at what was happening. And that's very hard and very difficult to achieve by yourself. Yes. It really is. Again, it's trial and error, and it's a lot of And a lot of people I meet, I think what we want is just shortcut things for parents.

Anouk:

We did it the hard way most of the time, and It took long, long, long time, then years years. If parents can just go there faster than we did.

Angie:

Yeah. Oh, I know. I I remember, you know, man, like, things were just wild in our house. I used to joke about I should write a book about just the utter craziness in our house some days. But oftentimes, you know, people would say, how do you keep your cool When all of that is happening and, you know, they, like, made it sound like it was just so easy for me. Yes. But man, oh, man, it's hard work, But it's not impossible. And you're so right.

Angie:

If you had said to me 10 years ago, if I had listened to this podcast 10 years ago when somebody was, you really just have to shift the way you're thinking, I have been, they're not in my house. But that that really is where a coach comes in is to really Give you very specific tools, very specific exercises, very specific practice to shift your thinking. And a coach is so different than a therapist. And that therapists are amazing in helping you heal from your past, but a coach really helps you build your future and show up how you wanna show up now. So, yeah, I just I I can't say enough about how I feel like everybody needs a coach, Honestly, no matter where you're at in life. But

Anouk:

Yeah. I mean, I it's having someone in your corner, basically, and it's having support and what you need in the moment and in the way you need. And I think that's we made the main difference between and some some some, like, professional will have that too for sure, and I've seen it again and again. But when I was social worker. I remember clearly that we were told again and again that we could help anybody no matter our experience. And I Honestly think that's not a 100% true because I think in some specific things, it's possible, but because we have closer experience. But when the experience is so foreign for us, we just cannot grasp that the nuance and the difficulty that the person is going through. And I talk again and again with parents of kids with special needs and parents that were grieving children, and they kept telling, they just don't get it.

Anouk:

Like, they they're they're peeling from a book sometimes. They just don't get it. So I think as good as it can be for some things, sometimes you need people that lived it. Like and it's if if they have a professional training and lived it, that's perfect, but sometimes just being professional is not enough. You need to I've lived it to really understand or at least live something close to to really understand. Is there anything else you would like to share before we close.

Angie:

I don't think so. I will be sending or you'll be putting in the show notes my link. So Yeah. I I have a great little training video about that concept of respond versus react, and then there's a great handout that goes with it

Anouk:

Mhmm.

Angie:

That will help you plan out how you want to respond, so it's really powerful. And, of course, by doing that, you end up on my email which will then give you information about my weekly trainings. I I don't spam people. I do not have enough time or energy for that. So I really mostly I I send out reminders about what my training is for the week, which is in my Facebook group, Connected Parents with Angie. So you're welcome to join. So my emails are about that, or sometimes they'll come a great resource that I wanna share with my email list, but that's it. I promise no spamming.

Angie:

And then also, you know, if anything that we talked about Today really resonates with any of your listeners and you want to explore further how coaching can help your family, I do offer a free session where I go through an exercise that helps my potential clients to Really highlight where they're struggling because it's so hard to see the end of your own nose.

Anouk:

Yes.

Angie:

So so I walked through this exercise to help you see exactly where you'd like to tackle first And then we make a plan of attack, and you take that plan and do whatever you want with it. If you decide that you wanna move further, then we'll do that. And If you wanna take those strategies and run with it, then it's there for you too. So it's it's totally worth your time. I do have limited spots because I have so many things on my plate. But but don't be

Anouk:

all. Right?

Angie:

I know. So the easiest way to find me is connected parents with angie.com. All all of my socials are all the same. So, like, my Instagram is Connected Parents with Angie. My Facebook, they're all the same. And and you'll get that link for the the video in the the training with the handout.

Anouk:

Yeah. Perfect. And would you say because you work specifically with foster and adoptive parent. Do would you say its word like because the end out Sounds great, I think, for any parents.

Angie:

Yes. Yes.

Anouk:

Is still relevant or not really if they're not adoptive or foster parents? Like, is it really specific?

Angie:

So I would say that it is a very powerful tool if you're raising emotionally intense kids no matter the reason. In the training, I believe I talked a little bit about adoption, but, really, it's about the strategy itself, which If I'm being super honest, this strategy will work great with your spouse. It'll work great with your boss. It'll work great with your kids. So So it it's just such a powerful strategy, and I I use it on a daily basis with all kinds of people.

Anouk:

That's great. So true that lots of those things works with anybody. And is there any, resource outside of yours that you would like to share that was helpful for you as a parent.

Angie:

Oh, man. That's a tricky one. You know, I can say when I was, As a parent, when I was in the thick of it, when things were really rough and I was recommended so many books, and I look back at them now, A lot of them I disagree with now because a lot of them are really based on creating more structure and more routine. And I'm not saying that those are bad things, But when all of my focus was on creating those things, my focus wasn't on that unconditional love and being present for him, if I'm being super honest.

Anouk:

Mhmm.

Angie:

So so as far as the parenting resource, I mean, honestly, I would suggest checking out my trainings in my Facebook group. They're Free. I do it every week. I love doing it. They're really useful. And I know that the the people in my group, they they love Just the very practical tools that they leave with.

Anouk:

Great. And I I find that interesting because I can say that I've stop looking at lots of resources about parenting a while back, and It's finding the right ones. Like, there's some that are much more designed now, I think, for emotionally intense kids, but I think it's kind of new work Yeah. To the feeling. And and it was not the case 10 years ago. There was some, but they were really far and few.

Angie:

Mhmm. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah.

Anouk:

So I

Angie:

I grateful that you've had me here.

Anouk:

I'm super grateful to have you. It's super interesting to to have the, insight. And thank you so much for sharing so freely and openly about your experience.

Angie:

Yeah. Of course. Of course. Thank you.

Anouk:

Thank you.

Anouk:

I'm so glad you joined me today and took that time out of your intense life to focus on finding a new way to parent that works for you and your kids. To get the episodes at Sooner They Drop, make sure to subscribe to the podcast. And please leave a rating in review so other parents can find it too. Also, check out all the free resources on my website at family moments dotca so you can take action on what's the most important for you right now. And take a deep breath. Keep going. We're all in this together.