038 – Seeing Our Child Behind the Behavior – With Tonya Wollum

Anouk [00:00:00]:
Welcome to the podcast. Today, we're talking about something that we addressed a few times over the previous episodes, but that we're going more in-depth in today. It's seeing our child behind the behavior. Because it's so easy to just see the behavior and not see the child behind. And I know because you're here that you do wanna do that, but it's not always easy. And so our guest is addressing that with so much understanding and space for the parents to be imperfect. It's it's really it's a very wonderful conversation. And if you yeah.

Anouk [00:00:35]:
I suggest you go listen to the podcast from Carrie Bonnet about executive functioning. It's episode 29, because if you don't know what executive functioning is, you might be a bit lost in that conversation. But it's not absolutely necessary either. So, to talk to us about that, we have Tanya Wallum. She's a passionate disability advocate and host of the Water Prairie Chronicles podcast. With first hand experience as a parent of children with disabilities, Tonya understands the challenge faced by family and is dedicated to empowering parents to effectively advocate for their special needs children. She draws from her life experience to provide valuable insight and strategies to support families who are navigating life with a disability. And, she suggests 2 very interesting ways to do that, including getting a mentor from for parents and for kids.

Anouk [00:01:32]:
Someone that is just a few years, like, ahead of us, with some similar challenges so that we can have, someone to bounce ideas with. And she also is developing and she she developed SorryBox and she's still developing. So it's boxed for active kids, sensory kids, and it's coming from her experience with from another field. And so it's very, very interesting. And that discussion was a lot of fun as I was with Tanya. So I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Let's get to it. Welcome to parenting the intensity Where we'll talk all about how we can drop the general parenting advice that doesn't work with our emotionally intense kids anyway and let go of the unrealistic expectations society puts on us as parents.

Anouk [00:02:33]:
Together, we'll find solutions and ideas that work for you and your kids. Chances are deep down you know what they need. But you need a little encouragement to keep going on other days and permission to do things differently and help you fully trust that you already are a wonderful parent to your exceptional but challenging kid. Do you read all the things, listen to all the things, take all the courses, and you know a lot of things about parenting, but you struggle to actually apply them in your real life? Then you're in luck. I just started the Parenting the Intensity community, which is a monthly group support for parents of emotionally intense kids. And the goal is exactly that, to take all the information you learn from the podcast and from all the other sources and adapt them so that it works for your child and your family, your reality. Because things can work, but not always the same way for everybody. So the same thing might need to be adapted to work for you.

Anouk [00:03:52]:
And sometimes it's hard to sort through everything to choose the right things that so that you can really enjoy your life and your kids. Not always being afraid of the next outburst. You can join by clicking on the link in the show notes or on the website.

Anouk [00:04:14]:
So welcome, Tonia, over on the podcast. I'm really glad to have you here today.

Tonya [00:04:21]:
Thank you. I appreciate you inviting me. I've been looking forward to this.

Anouk [00:04:24]:
Yeah. Me too. It's so fun to talk to you all the time. So, can you start to by introducing yourself to the community and tell us why you do what you do?

Tonya [00:04:35]:
Sure. So my name is Tonya Wallam. I, am a mom and a wife. Those are probably my most important roles that I have, and I'm the host of the Water Prairie Chronicles. It's a podcast for special needs parents. And, just kind of a little background on on why I do that, Both of my children, they're both in college right now, but when they were growing up, they both had different types of disabilities. My daughter's visually impaired and my son has some silent disabilities. And as a young parent, it was really hard for my husband and I both to figure out what questions to ask, how to get them the help that they needed, and, and navigating the school system and trying to figure out, you know, what what what was there to help them and what did we need to do as parents to try to get them to the next level so that they could eventually be independent adults.

Tonya [00:05:23]:
And so because of that kind of wandering around trying to find our way and stumbling on on the path that seemed to work for them, I started the podcast just to try to help other parents who were younger than I am and starting that that journey. And so, so that's kinda where I am today.

Anouk [00:05:40]:
Great. So, yeah, love love that. Definitely. It's it's, it

Anouk [00:05:44]:
can be a really isolating path when you start on the special need parent path. So it's always great to connect with others, especially parents. So I love that you have a podcast on that topic too, which I know. But

Tonya [00:06:00]:
Yes.

Anouk [00:06:01]:
Because I've been on You

Tonya [00:06:02]:
you you have been one of my one of my favorite guests. So

Anouk [00:06:07]:
Oh. Definitely one of my favorite hosts.

Tonya [00:06:10]:
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.

Anouk [00:06:13]:
So the topic that we, will talk about today, I think it's something that, we all wanna do, but it's so hard. So seeing our kids behind the troubling behaviors, like, we know I would I might have mentioned that in every episode that we we need to see the child, like, and the behavior is just a need that is unmet. But sometimes it's still so let's be honest, annoying and hard and challenging the behavior. Like, how

Tonya [00:06:50]:
Tiring. We we get exhausted.

Anouk [00:06:53]:
Definitely. So how can we still see the child for who they are behind those behaviors? Or, yeah, despite or with. I don't know.

Tonya [00:07:03]:
Yeah. And and I, you and I were talking earlier, and you've you've had a guest on that's talked about executive functioning skills.

Anouk [00:07:10]:
Mhmm.

Tonya [00:07:10]:
And I think, so listeners, if you haven't listened to that, go back and check that one because because it was great information. But and it'll help you understand kind of what we're talking about here too. A lot of times, our kids who are really intense kids and, and may have ADHD, may have different diagnoses, or maybe they don't, maybe they just have just really intense personalities.

Anouk [00:07:31]:
Mhmm.

Tonya [00:07:31]:
A lot of times, they're missing some of those executive functioning skills, or or they're delayed. They're they're they're coming, but they're behind their peers. Mhmm. And so that causes frustration for the child, which then can cause behaviors that may not be what we think. I know, one of the biggest surprises that I had when I first started learning about executive functioning skills is that and you you probably know this, your listeners may as well, but, but typically a child given their chronological age, their executive functioning age may be 3 years younger than that. And so and so I think back to my son who who struggled with this more, when he was 7, 8, 9, 10, he looked like he was a lot older and he had this vocabulary and he would talk like he was older, but people would expect him to be 10, 11, 12. And then Emotionally, he's, you know, 6, 7, 8. And and it didn't fit and and they didn't understand.

Tonya [00:08:30]:
So they would get impatient with them and they would. Yeah. And and and

Anouk [00:08:34]:
even we as parents, we would like

Tonya [00:08:37]:
Absolutely.

Anouk [00:08:37]:
Some days they look so grown up. Like, they look so much older than they are. And then they act like 2 year old and then you're like, what's Right?

Tonya [00:08:46]:
And it was like, where'd this come from?

Anouk [00:08:49]:
But I think that 3 year gap and it's important to remember that it's not necessarily linear. Like, some executive functions can be Anouk advanced for the area age, but others are behind, like, a lot behind. And it's often related to to like emotions. And so if you have a 10 year old, he might be acting like a 7 year old and need or even a little younger than that and needing much more. Yeah. That that's I think that's something to think in by the 3 year thing. Yes.

Tonya [00:09:22]:
And it might be that that 10 year old is making 12 year old decisions and they're showing all this maturity, but then in a second, all of a sudden, they're crying or they're having a tantrum and it doesn't make any Intense. And it's because they're they've developed these skills. Maybe maybe they're a twice exceptional kid, and they have this high IQ, and they have all this potential, but the executive functioning skill for understanding the emotions hasn't developed yet, and everything else is is advanced. And so it seems like this disconnect. And, and so, you know, and and I think through I'm sure you've you've talked to other parents as well. Thinking through for my son, how many times he was sent to be disciplined at school for things that really he just wasn't for yet. It wasn't, you know, it wasn't that he was trying to be bad. He was trying to be good most of the time.

Tonya [00:10:12]:
Yeah. And it just was misunderstood. The behavior wasn't matching up with what they thought. Mhmm. And I don't know if you've ever done it. I'm sure I said it at times. Anouk, Christopher, if you're listening, I apologize now. But to act your age, have you ever have you ever caught yourself saying that?

Anouk [00:10:29]:
I don't know, but I've heard that so many times. I'm sure that's so often, like yeah. Why? Like yeah.

Tonya [00:10:38]:
And and and and they are. We just don't recognize. But I think it would have helped me if I had known there was that gap Yes. With development. You know, you kind of know it as a parent because you see them, you see their heart, you know they're trying, but then we get frustrated and we get tired, and we can only take so many tantrums in a day before before we're exhausted. And then we need to have a tantrum. So so then we lash out at our child or we send them to to to time out or to to to their rooms.

Anouk [00:11:10]:
Yes. Because it's it's easy to have attention to a children other than much better than adults.

Tonya [00:11:16]:
We may not be on the floor screaming. Godbout

Anouk [00:11:19]:
it's a legal type. Our adult form. Yes. Yes. Yes. Definitely. And losing patients with our partners can be another way to lash out to. Yes.

Anouk [00:11:28]:
Always those closer to us that get the worst. Right?

Tonya [00:11:31]:
Right. Right. Or child. And maybe the child who's doing everything overly, you know, trying to compensate to keep peace in the family, and now we're yelling at them. And they Yeah. They didn't even do anything. They're just caught in the crossfire of of what's happening.

Anouk [00:11:44]:
Yeah. Oh, I think that would be an entire episode. I like, yeah, the other child. They were the forgotten one. Right. Sometimes. Yeah. And their role can change, but, yeah, this is.

Anouk [00:11:58]:
Yeah. And so I think that 3 year gap is very important to keep in mind. And of course, it's not exactly that for each shield. No.

Tonya [00:12:07]:
No. It'd be different from child to child.

Anouk [00:12:09]:
It can be up to 3 years on some of their development. And I think sometimes we just running that through, like, wondering if something makes no Intense, asking ourselves, could it be one of the executive function that is 3 years behind that might explain what's happening now? Right.

Tonya [00:12:27]:
I a lot of times, I like to think through, like, when when you're thinking about executive functioning skills, it's like it sounds like this formal thing. Mhmm. Like, you know, is it this, this, or this? And I don't think logically, it's always exactly that. And so I like to kinda think through, like, some of the the ways that those behaviors may show up. And so, you know, it might be that they they they get bored as easily, and they they can't tolerate being bored. And so sometimes that'll cause

Anouk [00:12:56]:
Yeah.

Tonya [00:12:57]:
Behaviors that aren't desirable to come out, or they they seem like they don't get along with other students. And that that could only just be because an executive functioning skill is missing or is is being delayed here. And, and so and those are the things that that we get frustrated with sometimes, and it's Yes. It's, you know, it it isn't just something on paper that you see. It's those those actions that we see that are kinda hard to recognize in the moment for what they are. And, you know, maybe maybe they went to a neighbor's house to play, and now the mom's saying, you know, well, Johnny's not not sharing or Johnny's not not doing this or that. And if if we as parents, if we can recognize that, okay. Yeah.

Tonya [00:13:37]:
Johnny's having a hard time today. 1, we need we need to bring Johnny Johnny home and put him in a safe place because he doesn't need to get that type of of friction happening at another house. But, but I remember too back in elementary school and in middle school, excuse me, feeling like I couldn't explain to my neighbors why I wasn't gonna punish my son

Anouk [00:14:01]:
because Oh, yes. It was just a misunderstanding.

Tonya [00:14:05]:
Anouk it wasn't it wasn't intentional willfulness that was happening. It wasn't he was trying to get his own way. It wasn't any of that. He was and it just wasn't working. Mhmm. And so, and and even sometimes feeling like, family members or neighbors thought that I was coddling him too much

Anouk [00:14:29]:
and bathing too much. Yeah. That's a big one, and I think it's and, like, it's it's often very hard because just what we tried other other things, and it's not working. So now we're trying something else that might Right. Sound weird to you because it's working like the regular way isn't working for you, but it's not working for my kids.

Tonya [00:14:50]:
Right. And for their child, if we if we gave them that extra time and let them kind of de stress with us because we're a lot of times as moms, especially, we're that child security blanket. We we're their safe place where they know that they can Anouk, and and they may be thrashing at us. Just need to vent all those emotions and then relax, and and they're okay because they're safe enough to do that with us. To someone else looking in Yeah. They're thinking that we're just encouraging it because we're know, we're hugging them and what they're we're lying them.

Anouk [00:15:20]:
Enabling them.

Tonya [00:15:21]:
We're enabling them. Yes. I a that. And their child in that same situation may may be taking advantage of it. Yeah. You know, moms and dads, you know your child. You know that they're not just trying to to pull one over on you. Yes.

Tonya [00:15:36]:
They actually need it because you just see the emotion. You see the pain. You know you know how they're feeling. Yeah. And, and and you can feel it. As you're hugging those little bodies, you can feel all just coming through them.

Anouk [00:15:47]:
Stress and all the the tension. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. And I I think that judgment makes us so often it's it's hard to see the child behind just ourselves. But then when other people are judging, it makes it even harder because we're doubting that we are seeing the right thing from our children. Like we Right. We we are taking in all of those judgment, all of those vision of our children from others.

Anouk [00:16:14]:
And we're like, I know that's not it, but then do I? And then we're doubting and we're not seeing

Tonya [00:16:21]:
You see you still question yourself.

Anouk [00:16:22]:
Are you Yeah.

Tonya [00:16:23]:
And then you see yourself. You're hurting them?

Anouk [00:16:25]:
Exactly. And then you see your child from those point of views, and it makes it harder to see the child behind the behavior even more. So I think that's a big one too. Yeah. Definitely.

Tonya [00:16:37]:
We had we had 1 year in middle school where, my son was home learning. It wasn't it wasn't homeschooling, but we had a it was an online school. And so he was able to to access it from home. And most of that year, I was able to adjust when we did different lessons. We didn't know it at the time, but he was in the early stages of narcolepsy, so sleep issues were already in there, but we we didn't know why. And so we would do math sometimes at midnight or at 3 at 1 o'clock in the morning. And he was awake, I was awake, we were able to to get it to work. Mhmm.

Tonya [00:17:11]:
And, but that was probably my favorite year because we were able to at 9 o'clock at night, we'd have dinner, then we'd go for a walk around the neighborhood. Everybody's going to bed. And we were out to, you know, he had a skateboard sometimes while I'm while I'm walking. But I enjoyed seeing him just be himself. And he could, you know, the we didn't have to worry about circadian rhythms and everything else and having to force him to get up to go to school the next morning. It was he was able to learn on his own time. And I think the other thing that he learned that year was confidence in himself because he wasn't being berated all the time by teachers. He wasn't being compared to other students.

Tonya [00:17:51]:
He could he could be himself, and he learned that he actually was smart. He really could do things.

Anouk [00:17:56]:
Yeah.

Tonya [00:17:56]:
And he wasn't just always feeling like he just was never measuring up. Mhmm.

Anouk [00:18:00]:
But if you go back

Tonya [00:18:01]:
to the the school the next year, but but but for 1 year, I had that with them.

Anouk [00:18:06]:
And it's a great way too to like know what I need as a child. Like, I know that way my needs are met and I function better. So it's it might be hard to advocate for school at 3 in the morning, but Yes. Since you know why you're not performing.

Tonya [00:18:23]:
Right. And most students don't have narcolepsy, so they're not going to

Anouk [00:18:28]:
No. That's kind of a rare situation for sure. It's not something that is very common.

Tonya [00:18:33]:
We didn't know at the time either. It just it worked, and we we went with it because it was less arguments at that time of night. So we we could could work on it together.

Anouk [00:18:42]:
Yeah. But I think it's not just narcolepsy. Like other for other reasons, Anouk can have, like, we are expected to have a very fixed schedule and kids can should be at in bed at that time and waking up at that time. But lots of kids, for many reasons, don't have that schedule, but we're forcing everybody in the same schedule, which makes it hard for a lot of kids. Right. So I think it's it's it's true for other kids. And I that, like, drive us to the other thing that I I want to, talk to you about, which is, like, when you have the kids that is different, and we are different parents because we have different kids.

Tonya [00:19:20]:
Right.

Anouk [00:19:21]:
Often, it's very hard because it's lonely as we were saying in the the beginning. And I know that you're all talking about, having adults that have the same diagnosis as your children so that they can see examples of what it is. So, like, I will how does that even work?

Tonya [00:19:42]:
Well, what what got me thinking on this, well, a a couple of things. Daughter has a physical disability. It's very different from what what my son has faced, but, but you still feel isolated, so I think we can Mhmm. Can make that connection there.

Anouk [00:19:56]:
Definitely.

Tonya [00:19:57]:
When she was in elementary school, realizing that she needed peers that she could connect with.

Anouk [00:20:03]:
Mhmm.

Tonya [00:20:03]:
And she was always the only child in her school that had a visual impairment, so there was never another blind or low vision child that we could ever introduce her to, and most of her teachers never had taught another student. So she was kind of isolated by herself there. And I started looking for organizations in our community anywhere that I could go. If I could find an adult that will have low vision, I would talk to them. And, literally, I just started talking to anyone that I could find to find out what they knew or what they could do. And when she was we moved to north we're in North Carolina. Now when we moved here, she was 8, I think. She was in in 2nd grade, so 7 or 8.

Tonya [00:20:43]:
And, and we found an organization that was just starting to to meet, within that 1st year. And there was a little girl with the exact same eye condition who had just won this beauty pageant, and she had her tear on and her sash. And she came to one of the meetings. And so she spent the day with Emily. She, and then a few weeks later, she caught her and they the moms and I, we we we met at the mall and the girls walked around the mall. And so this older girl who was maybe 12 at the time showed my daughter what it was like to have low vision and to be confident in who you are and to, and she she to find out where a store was at the mall. And so they've they went and they asked for help and they and so even though Emily wasn't old enough to do that by herself yet, it was a lesson that she learned from another girl that had that same condition. Mhmm.

Tonya [00:21:36]:
The the the older girl is now an attorney in Massachusetts, I think. You know, she went on to to do great things.

Anouk [00:21:43]:
Mhmm.

Tonya [00:21:44]:
But, but we didn't stay in touch. We just kind of the her mom and I stayed in touch as far as, you know, what what our girls are doing. But that was it. So it didn't have to be a close friendship, but it gave my daughter an example of what was there. But it also gave me as a mom an example of what I could expect of my daughter. Mhmm. And so I think looking like that are helpful. On the podcast, I interviewed a woman who has 2 sons who are deaf, and she has a deaf mentor.

Tonya [00:22:11]:
And this is what what got me thinking more of this even. So I did it naturally, but I didn't have a mentor there. I just had that one connection there. Mhmm. Excuse me. And later, I was able to find more as I got older. But, but this mom, when her children are very young, she intentionally went into the deaf community and found someone who would work with her as a mentor. And she contacted a national organization.

Tonya [00:22:35]:
So I think if you if you're a definite diagnosis, go to those national organizations or organizations and just ask, you know, how can I find a mentor who has this diagnosis or someone who has an older child who has this diagnosis?

Anouk [00:22:52]:
Mhmm.

Tonya [00:22:52]:
Or if you don't have a diagnosis, just kind of even through Instagram or something, you could put out a post and just say, who's who's out there? There's gotta be someone who's posting about the same topic.

Anouk [00:23:04]:
Yeah.

Tonya [00:23:04]:
And, and just you know, it takes a little bit of initiative. Mhmm. But the value of what you get from that is, you know, you you can pick their you can ask them the dumb quest. They'll probably be glad to share with you what what they've learned, what's worked for them, what's not worked for them.

Anouk [00:23:21]:
Yeah. Yeah. All those things that you don't know who to ask, basically, because Exactly. Yeah. You feel that nobody will wanna answer or know the answer or yeah. So I think that's very interesting. Yeah. Definitely.

Tonya [00:23:34]:
And I call them dumb questions because it'd be it'd be offensive to ask someone that you met on the street questions. But if they're your mentor, if they've already agreed to have that connection with you, even if you're across the world, if you can email the questions back and forth, they could at least tell you, yes. You're you know, I I have a child that's 5 years older. This is what we did at that age, and and it it's going to get better, or this is what we did to help to help fix that that problem, or what we did for for Johnny to make friends. I don't know who Johnny is, but I keep keep talking about Johnny.

Anouk [00:24:11]:
He's the fictitious example.

Tonya [00:24:15]:
If you if your son is Johnny, I'm sorry. I'm not talking about Johnny's.

Anouk [00:24:19]:
It could be any name. It's just yeah.

Tonya [00:24:21]:
That's right.

Anouk [00:24:22]:
But, yeah, I I love the idea, and it's like both it can both be for the child and for the parents to know what to look for. And I think it's interesting because sometimes we might tend to baby like, we talk about, like, supporting them, and it might look like babying them in some ways. But also sometimes we do tend to do it maybe a little bit more too much in some aspects. And it's great to know that they could do more and help push them because I think that's a balance that's hard to reach. Like the, where do I push? Am I pushing them too much or not enough? And like when we're like walking on a child so that we don't have a big meltdown, sometimes we don't want to push, but then am I just not like so I think it's always a a difficult balance to strike with those kids.

Tonya [00:25:12]:
They need to do more, and we're holding them back too long.

Anouk [00:25:15]:
Yes. Yes.

Tonya [00:25:16]:
You know, we're we're gonna eventually get to that point where we're keeping them back and they're ready to just fly, and we need to know it's okay to to let them go and to let them fall a little bit. And, you know, we're still there to pick them up, but but I think we need to let them let them try. I remember with, with Christopher, not not my daughter as much but with my son, there were stages where as parents, we knew we had to pull back the reins because, like, the world was getting too big for him. And we saw more meltdowns, you know, just Yeah. Problems. And it always came down to like, his world was too big. He had too many choices, and so we would give him just a few choices and kinda start easing up again. Each time we'd ease up again, he'd grow a little bit more, and then we'd we'd hit a limit.

Tonya [00:26:01]:
We'd come back in again. And this was, like, from 8 more to maybe 8 or 9 that we were seeing that. Okay. And, and his peers weren't going through that. They had kind of left that by the time they were.

Anouk [00:26:11]:
Mhmm.

Tonya [00:26:12]:
But for him, it just he just needed a little more protection, but then then he wanted to go out again. You know, he was ready ready to try more. And It's like that's a

Anouk [00:26:22]:
3 years gap that you're going out.

Tonya [00:26:24]:
Yeah. And I and the yeah. Like I said, had I known then, it would have made more sense. It didn't really make sense to me. But I did someone had told me somewhere along the way that sometimes choices are too much for some kids, and that was some of the best words that I could have heard because I heard them to begin with. I didn't just ignore it. Mhmm. But whenever I saw this in him, it was like, well, let's let's try it.

Tonya [00:26:45]:
And so and we even took it down to the point where breakfast was, do you wanna eat or not? That's your choice. And then it would become, do you want toast or cereal? That would be, you know, just a couple little choices until we could see how far he could take it. You know? Because before it would be, you know, he'd come in and he had the whole kitchen to choose from. It was just too much. And it it's a bad example, but it kinda gives you the idea.

Anouk [00:27:08]:
Yes. Yes. And I think that's interesting because often we're told with kids that are not necessarily compliant with big air quotes, that we should give them choices so that we'll help. But that's not always the case

Anouk [00:27:22]:
as always.

Anouk [00:27:23]:
It's not because it was supposed to work that it will work with our kids and some kids when you give choices, you're it's too much. I can tell you that one of my child this summer, at some point she asked me to go out of the store because I was she was having choices. And it was too many choices for her.

Tonya [00:27:38]:
And she was getting overwhelmed.

Anouk [00:27:40]:
Yeah. She was getting overwhelmed by the choices. And it was something she really wanted, but she could not choose. It was like stuffed animal or something. Yeah. So too many choices. Sometimes it's just too much. Even if it's something you really want when they have too many choices, it it's too much.

Anouk [00:27:54]:
So I love that idea of reducing the choices when you like, maybe that might be one of the things that triggering behaviors in our children. So always love those out of the box ideas that are different because it's often why and sometimes it's like that idea that someone else tried and you're like, that makes sense for me. I'm going to try that. And then it works magic. Like, it's not gonna solve everything. It doesn't work. Yeah. Yeah.

Anouk [00:28:20]:
If it doesn't hurt, it didn't hurt anything. No. Exactly. You try this, not working. We'll try something Intense, and it's a lot of trial and error. So and I love that little glimpse. I think I'm I should, like, collect them all and put them in a huge document. And so they can go through all those ideas because everybody has those little glimpse of good, great ideas, and I love them.

Tonya [00:28:41]:
I'd be curious to hear what your listeners have found that works for them if they've if they've gone through that before.

Anouk [00:28:47]:
Yes. I would I would love to know. And I I I always like, I welcome listeners to share those ideas and to come over. I'm always like, I would love to have some listeners over on the podcast sharing those, like, magic solution. I would love that. But yeah. And I think, like, we talked a bit about one of those solution interesting solution that you find. You're making them available to the public.

Anouk [00:29:11]:
So I really love that. Like, you talk about the subscription box for reading, but reading in a very different way. So just let's talk a bit about that because I really love the data.

Tonya [00:29:24]:
So we are, we've been working on this for a little bit, and it's something that I did with my kids when they were young. And it's, putting together what's called a story box. And, typically, it's used for visually impaired children who can't see books when they're looking at the pictures. And so when my daughter was very young, we made these boxes for her, and a story box goes along with the story books. You have the book itself that the parent would read, and inside the box or Intense our case, there are actual pouch pouches that the objects are in. There are about 10 objects that go along with the illustrations that would be inside the book. Mhmm. So, for example, if the book, there's one that I'm working on now, in in English, it's it's it's good night moon in French.

Tonya [00:30:07]:
What would it be called?

Anouk [00:30:09]:
What it was? We looked at it. It was in French.

Tonya [00:30:13]:
Okay. So so it's it's it's a book that a lot of families have, so so you may know the story, but there are different objects in there. So you have a comb and a brush and a bowl full of mush. And so so in the in the box, you would have a comb and then there's a little bowl, and then there's a little lady whispering hush, and the lady's a bunny rabbit. So there's a stuffed bunny rabbit inside the box. So as you're reading the story, you're handing your child the object. And so if you have a child who's a little a little movement oriented, we'll call them, and they may not wanna sit still and look at the pictures, they're holding on to an object. So here's a 3 d object that they can act out what's happening.

Tonya [00:30:50]:
And in this particular story, you have the cow jumping over the moon. So they could be holding on to the stuffed cow and making jump over the moon, as as you're listening to it. And what happens is now now this particular book is for toddlers and preschoolers, which younger, and there'll be other other boxes that'll come out for older students too. And on those, we'll have the objects that go along with the story, but we'll also be putting in some, some extra notes on how they can be used for literacy so that as your child is going from reading books to writing stories, they could use these objects to help write stories themselves. And, and writing would begin with telling stories, so they could take the objects and make up their own story to go with them and tell you what that story is. And then as they get older, they'd they'd be able to use that to kinda help them organize the story itself by having those objects there. So, so it's not just a book for a young child who can't see a picture. It also goes beyond that.

Tonya [00:31:49]:
And what I what I like about you go from the stages of early literacy to more advanced Mhmm.

Anouk [00:31:56]:
Yeah. You have different stages for sure.

Tonya [00:31:58]:
Exactly. Yeah. But then you also have that active child who needs motion involved. They're still learning because they can play with this toy while they're listening to the story. And, as books get longer, you know, you still have 10 objects, but they can have those and they can kind of have them act out what you're reading so that they're they're putting it all together. Yeah. And I love that the story boxes.

Anouk [00:32:20]:
Yeah. And I love that it started with something that was very specific for kids with visual impairments, but then you saw the usefulness in other, like, other situation with kids with different needs. And I think that's something we we sometimes forget that, like, all the different, like, the different needs, they are in boxes, and we look at them in very with, like, specific ways and opening that and sharing the information from one special needs to another can be very helpful for sure. But in

Tonya [00:32:54]:
our case, my daughter is the oldest, so I had made when she was a toddler and into preschool years. But what we noticed was my son enjoyed these stories just as much Yeah. Because it was it was fun holding on to the objects. Even if he wanted to sit in my lap, he still wanted to play with the toys.

Anouk [00:33:08]:
I don't see any child not loving that.

Tonya [00:33:11]:
That's that's it. Well, then we also have our sensory kids who, you know, they they would get to squeeze the stuffed animal, they could they could tap the bowl while they're listening. You know, there's there's different things happening with it too. They can comb their hair with the comb that's inside the box.

Anouk [00:33:26]:
Yeah, it's engaging in movement and sensory and visual if they they they can. If like, it's engaging them in so many different ways that just and for kids that have most more trouble with everything that is, like, abstract, then it makes it very more concrete. So I think it can fit for so many different kids' needs. So I really love that that idea. So Yeah. Thanks. Let's let's keep us posted on when you release those.

Tonya [00:33:55]:
Oh, I will. I will. We're, the the first one will be the the the good night moon, and that's coming out, end of October, early November. So it'll be be there for the holidays. I'm hoping that we'll have several others on preorder by then too so that we

Anouk [00:34:09]:
can It's it's it's should be yeah. Now we're beginning of October when we record, but by the time we release, that might be available. So we'll put the link in the Yeah. In the show notes.

Tonya [00:34:18]:
I will send you updates as I have more information on them for you. So thank you.

Anouk [00:34:22]:
Love it. And, is there and, like, where can people find you other than the boxes? Where can they

Anouk [00:34:31]:
find you?

Anouk [00:34:32]:
I mean, you have to podcast will link

Anouk [00:34:34]:
to the podcast.

Tonya [00:34:34]:
Yes. We have a podcast, the Water Prairie Chronicles. You can search for that. It'll if you just type that in, it'll it'll come up wherever you're searching. But, but my website is waterprairie.com, and, and I have a link tree that has all of my links, and that's, link linktree/waterprairie. And, so you can can find me at any of those locations. We're on all all social media, so, so those links are there. And pretty much if you put in Water Briere anywhere, I think you'll you'll find us some way, shape, or form.

Anouk [00:35:06]:
Anyway, the the the link will be in the show notes and on the blog page. So they'll find you easily that way.

Tonya [00:35:12]:
Thank you.

Anouk [00:35:13]:
Is there anything else you would like to share before we end?

Tonya [00:35:17]:
I did wanna share that, So we've been talking about executive functioning skills and the delays and all. And I did have an episode, earlier this year, number 71, where we met an executive functioning coach in New York City. Well, he's in Queens, New York. But, but he works with ADHD and executive functioning students, and he's worked all around the world. But, but if you wanted to hear more, you have the episode that that that you just released as well on the topic, But that would be another another resource for if you wanted to to hear more about executive functioning skills and how they affect students specifically.

Anouk [00:35:52]:
Yes. Yeah. Because I think it's a big topic for sure, the way it affects the students in school because it's

Tonya [00:35:59]:
Yes.

Anouk [00:35:59]:
Often hard for parents to understand and hard for educators to understand.

Tonya [00:36:04]:
So I was gonna say, I don't think our teachers are as educated in recognizing what it is as they could be, but there's so much that our teachers have to take on that Yes. I don't think it's intentional. I think it's just that they may not pick up on it. No. I'm not. It's up to us to kinda help them.

Anouk [00:36:19]:
Yeah. And it's so different, like, for every child that even if they knew the theory out that applies to each children is very difficult to to get. Yeah. Even if we have just one, it's hard for ours. So and you have a grad school. It's definitely a struggle. Great. So we'll link all those in the show notes.

Anouk [00:36:41]:
So, thank you so much, Tanya, for, sharing with, the listeners. And it was very great to chat with you again as always.

Tonya [00:36:50]:
Thank you. Can I can I say something to your listeners?

Anouk [00:36:53]:
Yeah. Sure.

Tonya [00:36:54]:
Go on. I know I know your podcast is still kind of early on this. You're, you're you're doing a great job with what you're doing. But listeners, if you're enjoying this and want to support what she's doing, I think one of the best things you can do is to go and leave her a review on, Apple Podcasts. I think it's the only place where you can leave reviews right now. Okay. But if you leave one there, it will help hers come up higher whenever people are searching for topics that are related to what she's doing. So I would encourage all of you to go and do that if you can.

Tonya [00:37:18]:
To what she's doing. So I would encourage all of you to go and do that if

Anouk [00:37:22]:
you can. Thank you so much for saying that. It's so true. But it's it's the way and it's a great like, it's great to know that someone's listening.

Tonya [00:37:31]:
Yes. Yes. It is. It is very, very helpful as as a host to know that.

Anouk [00:37:34]:
Yes. We know we see the numbers, but it's numbers. It's great to have, like, more feedback than that on the podcast that

Tonya [00:37:40]:
we're doing. Real people.

Anouk [00:37:42]:
Yes. Exactly. It's always fun. So thank you very much. It was nice to have you on.

Tonya [00:37:48]:
Thank you. I always enjoy talking with you. This this this has been fun.

Anouk [00:37:57]:
I'm so glad you joined me today and took that time out of your intense life to focus on finding a new way to parent that works for you and your kids. To get the episodes at Soon as they drop, make sure to subscribe to the podcast. And please leave everything in review so other parents can find it too. Also, check out all the free resources on my website at familymoments.ca so you can take action on what's the most important for you right now. And take a deep breath. Keep going. We're all in this together.