017 – Sensory system’s everyday impact – With Munira Adenwalla

Anouk:

Welcome to the podcast. Today, we'll talk about sensory processing, which is the way our senses understand the world. And we'll go behind the general senses, which are touch, smell, taste, sight. Am I forgetting one? Anyway, You know them. So we'll go behind those because there are 3 other senses that we generally don't talk about that are part of how we understand the world, and our Emotion intense gets sometimes understand the world in a different way. So we'll do that today. And to do that, we welcome guest Munira Ardhanwala. She's been a pediatric occupational therapist for more than 25 years.

Anouk:

She specialized in sensory processing. She helps children from birth to 13 years old to move, learn, play, and write by getting to the root cause and developing the underlying sensory and motor skills needed. Munira is a strong advocate for parents' intuition and knowing their child's best, kind of like I am. So you know why I wanted her here today. She empowers parents with the knowledge and confidence to support their Child's sensory, motor, and emotional needs to consultation and parent groups program. She's the creator of the Foundations For Writing program, which help parents develop and support their child's underlying sensory and motor skills for writing using the no writing way approach. So let's get started. Welcome to Parenting the Intensity, where we'll talk all about how we can drop the general parenting advice That doesn't work with our emotionally intense kids anyway.

Anouk:

And let go of the unrealistic expectations society puts on us as parents. Together, we'll find solution and ideas that work for you and your kids. Chances are, deep down, you know what they need, But you need a little encouragement to keep going on other days and permission to do things differently and help you fully trust that you already are a wonderful parent to your exceptional but challenging kids. So I welcome, Munira. I'm really glad you're here. We'll talk today a bit about sensory processing. I think a lot of our emotionally intense kids do have sensory processing issues, And it's something that is, at least, I would say for me, pretty complicated to understand. So I'm guessing for lots of parents, it's the same.

Anouk:

So I'm really glad you're here with us today.

Munira:

Thank you.

Anouk:

So first, can you explain the 1 on 1 of what is sensory Processing because we all know the sense of taste, smell, and things like that. But sensor processing is a bit more complicated than that. And sometimes we just think of maybe the kids with the headphones that don't too much noise, but it's more than that.

Munira:

Yeah. Yeah. So it Very basically, it looks at how you make sense of your senses. And the way I I look at it is I compare it to a computer often. Like computer, you have input, which is like the information that comes in, then you have how it's processed inside of the computer, and then how it is output. So for us, the input is your senses, your normal 5 senses, taste, touch, smell, Sight and hearing. And then you also have, some other senses. We have, proprioception, which is Your senses from your muscles and your joints, it basically tells you where your body is.

Munira:

It would sound so obvious to us that, yeah, we should know where our body is, but A lot of people cannot really feel where their body is and know where they are really. And then we also look at your vestibular sense, which is your sense of Movement. And then there's also your interoception sense, which is knowing and feeling how things feel inside of your body, Whether it's knowing when you have to go to the bathroom or knowing when you're hungry or knowing when your heart is Racing or your breathing feels a little fast and how all of that relates to your emotions and feeling when things are starting to to happen. And so we looked at how that information comes into the body and how it's processed in the brain. So either if you're Sensitive to some of that information, or you may not feel that information because you might need a lot to feel it Or to hit that sweet spot in the brain to sense it, and then how that affects many different skills such as how does it affect your Coordination, or how does it affect your ability to cope with different things in in your day or cope with the Demands of daily life, how it affects your play skills, your, socializing with people, or or even, like, getting dressed in daily life Type of skills. So that's

Anouk:

Yeah. Basically, it's how we interpret the world around us.

Munira:

Yeah.

Anouk:

From true this, all those different senses. Right?

Munira:

Yeah. Yeah. So how all of those senses are processed in the brain and how that affects your interpretation of Your world. And you can see it through your child's coordination, how they concentrate, how they focus, how they learn, all of those. That's like the clues to tell you about how a person processes sense sensory information.

Anouk:

Mhmm. And you touched that some kids, they're sensory avoiders. They don't like too many inputs. Some kids need a lot of input.

Munira:

Yeah. So we have kids who are what we, call, sense sensitive to sensory information, and you will see them as being like I avoiding sensory input or fleeing sensory input or they're overwhelmed when there's lots of things going on. So they might be sensitive to each of those senses. So to touch, they might be sensitive to being touched by other people or the the feeling of their clothes Or by different foods, you might see someone being sensitive. And then for a sound, it'd be often it's a hand dryer or fire. Sirens are, sensitive for kids or even being in, like, loud or busy places like a loud classroom or being out on, recess or break Time was more more louder with all the children playing, and it might be even sensitive to movement where they're more really cautious with moving their body. Or as babies, it might be that they had a hard time being moved around.

Anouk:

Like, the kids that don't like to be thrown in the air.

Munira:

Or climbing up high or going on the swings Maybe hard for them because they feel it a lot, and they're also a bit insecure with their body. They're not feeling where their body is in space, so they feel lost with their body.

Anouk:

Is that what the, like, weighted blanket are helpful for?

Munira:

I think the weighted blanket is more for when children might Feel overwhelmed or distressed. It's a calming strategy, but I like to use more active proprioception type of activities to feed the body with more sensory information. It makes more of an impression in the brain If you do activities, to to feel where you are. And this it also releases that dopamine, which is kind of calming, and that It has a a knock on effect on the emotional side, which I know you do a lot with. So that's the sensitive side. And then we have the side where Kids may, kids need a a lot more sensory information, and these are the kids who they're, like, very fiddly or fidgety. They're wiggly. It's hard for them to sit still, or they may may be really rough with their bodies.

Munira:

So they're doing things with a lot of pressure, or they're Kind of walking like an elephant, kind of, like with them more hard with their body. Or they also need to be really act Active. So they're always on the go, and it's all in an attempt to kinda feel where their body is. And it's also how they learn best when they're More moving. And it's also interesting that different people learn differently as well. So some people, for instance, They can talk and get their thoughts out much better when they're moving their hands around or if they're pacing or walking back and forth is when they get information out of their heads better when they're moving. So it's just also some of it is just a sensory differences, If if you know what I'm saying.

Anouk:

And Yeah. It's just, like, different from 1 person to another. And also, like, If I'm not wrong, some kids can be both. Like, for some aspect, they can be, like, avoiding sensory input. But on some other aspect, they are looking for those input. So Yeah. Because I I think we're looking often for one Type a child the other, but then when it's mixed, it's kind of confusing.

Munira:

Yeah. And, honestly, I've hardly ever met any child who is not mixed in some way. That's what they call a a sensory modulation. The brain is trying to find balance. So sometimes if a child might be sensitive To sounds, they might be really busy and active with their body, but it's just they're trying to feed their body with information to make sense of the world around them. And that actually also helps them to make sense of sounds as well, to be able to feel, like, how far or near something It's when you know where your body is and have some spatial awareness. So it's all connected.

Anouk:

Yeah. Yeah. And it can be Complicated for parents to understand what is playing. Like, I know for a a long time, I was confused because one of my children, It looks like she's avoiding sounds, but then she yells really, really loud. So that doesn't make sense. It's weird. Why is she Is she so live loud if she doesn't love loud sounds?

Munira:

Yeah. It also might be I think when you're in this, And I I don't know your child. I'm I'm just saying what I know from sometimes when you're in a high high state Yourself or a fight or flight kind of state or if you're sensitive, you kind of use a high pitched voice On that level as well. So that might be a reason. Like, I know if I'm stressed or overwhelmed, I might get a bit louder, And my voice gets a bit, like, shorter, if if you know what I mean, like short breath. And so it's

Anouk:

It goes in an eye or pit. Like, yeah, that those definitely make sense. I can say I Saw that in general when she's irritated, she will be, of course, louder than if she's just happy.

Munira:

Yeah. And I think the other thing is that often people think that their child is really sensory seeking, and sometimes it's also sensory, like, fleeing. It looks like they're really active or they're really busy and all over the place and that they're enjoying sensory information. But also it's Sometimes it's that they are sensory fleeing from the overwhelm, and it looks like they are seeking. Does that make sense?

Anouk:

Yeah. Yeah. So, like, They're overwhelmed, and so they're trying to calm themselves by doing that. Is that is that it?

Munira:

And and what looks like they're moving is is they're also trying to just Get away from the overwhelm. And I I think that's really important from the emotional side of things To notice when it looks like they're sensory seeking, but they're fleeing because things are becoming too much. Mhmm. And it might too much right then in the moment, or it just be like a buildup of too many little too much is Yeah. Yeah. That present late later on.

Anouk:

Yeah. I can definitely like, we had a great example of that. This summer, I went shopping with my my child, and It went it was a big mall. Yes. It was not so busy, but still, it's a big mall, and I know, like, Store is not very strong suit. And at some point, we were like in the last one, it was the calmer one with elbows nobody, a very big store. But at some point, she told me, like, I have enough I need to go out. And we just we went out of the store, and it was like it was clearly too much from the other stores we went in Four, because that one was not the problem at all.

Anouk:

Like, if we only had Gong to this one, she would have been fine. So I think that was a very clear example of, like, Now it's too much. I've odd enough from the the all the places we went before this one. You know?

Munira:

Yeah. Yeah.

Anouk:

Because I think sometimes it doesn't make sense. If I didn't know anything about that, I would like, why is this one a problem Since it's the calmer one of it all, why? But, yeah, once you know it's it can be an accumulation of triggers And of sensory input, then it makes more sense. I think it's like the example of, like, the blue plates that the kids can make a huge thing about. It's generally not the blue plates the Problem.

Munira:

Yes. Yes. Yeah. It's something else.

Anouk:

Yeah. Yeah. It's something else going on and other things that accumulated over the time, and then they're bursting for the color of the Color of the plate for a reason that has nothing to do with the color of the plate.

Munira:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And I think as Parents or adults, we probably feel this way about things. Yeah. It's it's not, isn't it? It's like all the little little things that you Deal with all day, and then you're like, I can't take it anymore.

Anouk:

Yeah. Definitely. And we lose patience much more at the end of the day than At the beginning of the day.

Munira:

Yeah. Yeah. Those little little things have filled up our cup too much.

Anouk:

Yeah. And I think it's a great reminder that we also Our sensory people, and we can also be more sensitive to some things or need more seeking on some things. And so it applies to us as parents also

Munira:

Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Like, even some parents, it's harder to cope with too much noise. You know? Or I'm just thinking because I I get dizzy Ease easily. So if I see that people are turning around circles or pay pacing back and forth a lot, it makes me feel dizzy. But this is, like, me problem is not a them problem. Mhmm.

Munira:

We have to also work together sometimes as as well.

Anouk:

And That would be the vestibular one. Right?

Munira:

Yeah. Yeah. It's also your eyes. Your eyes and your movement system are connected Together a lot? Yeah. That's the other interesting thing. It's like all these senses, they work together quite a lot. So your movement system in the brain, it sends a lot of pathways to the ears. It sends a lot of Ways to the ears.

Munira:

It sends a lot of, connections to the eyes, and it sends connections to your muscles and your joints to help you feel your body more. And it also sends, connections to the limbic system, which, for your emotional system to help with calming. So All of these senses, they affect other senses as well, and which I I think it it kinda makes things a bit more Fun at at the same time, knowing that you can help a child with their emotions by working on their Proprioceptive sense, for instance, sense giving you lots of input to your muscles and joints, and that's going to release that dopamine which is calming As well, and it's grounding. So by doing activities like jumping on a trampoline or crashing onto a crash pad or Climbing activities or obstacle courses or heavy pushing and pulling or those kind of activities, you you'd might think them and say, oh, how are we working on emotions by doing that by by doing that, you're grounding grounding the body and telling the body here you are and where you are More, and then that helps your emotions get grounded more as well. And in my programs, we work on controlling our pressure the force that you use with your body, hard force or medium force or light force. And this is something you never have to think about. It just automatically Happens based on the activities that you're doing, but we work developing the underlying skills. But I often find that once kids can Control their body and stop and start and move their body with more control.

Munira:

Parents are often saying that they're also More steadier in their emotions and more grounded with their emotions and dealing with stuff more as well. But it's just because, you know, the body and the mind are all connected. Yeah. And that that that proprioceptive sense. The grounding is not just in your body. It's Grounding in your mind, and your emotions as well. And when you feel what your body is doing, you can kinda feel the emotions More as well.

Anouk:

Okay. So it's like it helps the interoception part too.

Munira:

Is that it? Yeah.

Anouk:

Okay. Yeah. Okay. So it helps to feel what we're feeling inside too When we are more, like, grounded in outside with so basically, that I'm just maybe I'm completely off here. But I is that, like, related to mindfulness in some way?

Munira:

Well, what what I think happens is when when you feel your body And, okay, I'm gonna go on a slight tangent here, but it's it is kinda connected

Anouk:

There you go.

Munira:

As well. You know how when you're in fight or flight, you're kinda moving Fast. So your mind is moving fast, and your body's moving fast. Your heart rate goes fast, and everything kinda goes a bit faster. So I Fine. With kids I, see for the emotional regulation side, it's hard for them to slow down Mhmm. And All their bodies. So that's when I do a lot of this proprioceptive work to ground and, like, get the body to slow down and to stop Almost.

Munira:

Does that make sense? And then when we can work on the body being able to be stronger and more able to stop and start, It it impacts on the emotional side at the moment. This all being able to kind of come out into a slower Pace and a a more grounded and steady and stronger body also brings the mind to slow down as well.

Anouk:

Yeah. Okay. And I think It's pretty clear for many parents, like, some kids need to move to get their energy out and to sleep at night. This is something we we know, But it's not exactly that. It's different, and it's not just moving. It's some specific way to move. Like, you were giving example, jumping on the trampoline. And So it's not just running around the block, for example.

Anouk:

Right?

Munira:

Yeah. Well, for some kids, that that running is more activating Okay. To That fight or flight system. So it's doing things which bring you down and bring you kinda here, And that's anything that's got more heavy feeling to the muscles and the joints. So I do a lot of crawling activities or pulling on a on a rope or tug of war or simply pushing against my hands and push me over kind of games Okay. To kind of feel where you are. It's almost like doing weight.

Anouk:

Okay. But, yeah, I can definitely see for example, my daughter is in a preschool where they have, like, a electricity room, and they're always there at the end of the morning, And they're all out of control, basically. They're running around everywhere. They're climbing everywhere. Joe pushing things. It's they're completely out of control, and I think that's why they're moving. That's good. But they're not doing that kind of movement.

Anouk:

They're doing movement that are more exciting to their fight or flight response than Yeah. And it's very loud and echoey, and they're tired because they were all morning at school. And so I think it's just not the right Activity. Like, they should be you could be doing just different activities, and then they would be much more calm.

Munira:

Yeah. Like, it just had a lot of, like, Tunnels and things on the ground so the kids could literally get down to the ground. And I always say when you're getting down to the ground, that's grounding.

Anouk:

Makes sense. Yeah.

Munira:

Or even just having like, doing a lot of Play Doh or something at the end of the day, that's that's Also lots of that heavy resistance With

Anouk:

their hands.

Munira:

Yeah. And then for all the children would be, like, putty or clay would be more resistive enough for them Yeah. To be more grounding for them. So

Anouk:

And and love also your example of, like, pushing against your ends. Would you say something that we could use if the child is really dysregulated and in a complete meltdown? If the child accepts to do it, is it something we could do to help them calm in the moment because that's something that parents ask all the time. Like, when my child is completely disregulated, what can I do?

Munira:

Yeah. I think it's something you can try. But, also, in the moment, strategies are quite difficult to do. Sometimes you just have to ride it out.

Anouk:

Yeah.

Munira:

And you almost have to clock it for next time as a parent and just bring awareness to yourself of what happened before, what brought Came to this level, and what can you do next time? And can you add those sensory strategies next time

Anouk:

Before.

Munira:

Before Before you're going to do that thing or what led to that that and, also, sometimes you just don't know what led to that moment. Yeah. Love.

Anouk:

It can be very hard. Also think that sometimes we can see our children starting to become more And overwhelmed when they are not completely dis dysregulated, they're just starting to be dysregulated, then we can send them on the trampoline or Yeah. Things like that and not wait for them to be completely dysregulated. And sometimes we just don't see it. Sometimes it's just 0 to a100 in, like, matter of seconds, and we don't know. But I feel sometimes it's helpful, and just doing those more sensory activities on a regular basis, I'm guessing, is helpful too. Right?

Munira:

Yeah. I think and also knowing your child and when when to do it. I'm not very strict about doing things like every 1 to 2 hours. I think it depends on your child and on the day and what's going on for them on that day, if if you know what I mean. Like, that Just making to notice your child then when it is that they need to have, like, their cup filled. Mhmm. And as you do more, you'll see when is a good time to do this. So yeah.

Munira:

And it it could be for instance, if you're going to school, you might have, like, putty or something in for them to play within the back seat of the car when going to school. Or it might be that you walk to school instead. Or I don't know if Kids walk to school where you are or or not.

Anouk:

Where I am not, but where I used to live, yeah, definitely. It depends where walk

Munira:

Well, and pushing, like, the stroller if you have a sibling or or something. You know? So

Anouk:

You say jumping works or not?

Munira:

And it's different for different children. For some children, the jumping is activating. And for some children, it's really grounding. And I think it also relates to what Their strength and coordination is, so how hard the is. Because you go, like, jumping, jumping, and they're not stopping, and then they fall at the end. And that's a jumping where they're not able to stop and control within the jumps, whereas I will work on jumping and Being able to stop as well. So for me, if the child can do one jump and stop, that's great because that means that they can do

Anouk:

Their control. Yeah.

Munira:

Yeah. So if it can control the jump, then I find that it can be a really positive thing. And then them to control, I find it it puts them more into a fight or fight or flight.

Anouk:

Yeah. Because they're kind of in physical danger to some extent because they can fall and hurt themselves. And if parents are trying some of those things and they're looking if the child is if the it's calming for them or if it's just more disregulating, what should they look for to know which effect it has on their children.

Munira:

Yes. So if it's, calming, you'll see you know, you feel that sense when It's like a sigh almost. And, also, you'll feel that with your child as well that they will kinda slow down. They might be a bit more focused, And there might be a bit more playing with you. You might find the you might even notice more, like, coordination as as well. And then if it's the opposite end, one thing you might notice is a higher pitched voice. You might notice that they're kind of moving a little faster. And it's it's really interesting because sometimes this is all kids know.

Munira:

When kids are in a this fight or flight kind of state or this fast kind of state, That to them is is their normal. Mhmm. They don't know what it's like to feel a bit moving slower. To them, that's abnormal. It just feels weird. So they will they're often seeking that state of feeling high, if you know what?

Anouk:

Basically, because they're used to that.

Munira:

High state. It's it's normal to them. So to them, it's uncomfortable to be in a Slower state. So we almost have to do it really slow go slow with with them to feel that way. And and

Anouk:

So they feel used. They get used to feeling calmer, basically.

Munira:

Yeah. Yeah. I know.

Anouk:

Withdrawal. You need to get out of that state of being I guess it's When we, as adult, we just do too much Yes. All the time. And at some point, when we sit down, we feel like we should not be sitting down.

Munira:

Yeah. Yeah. And yes. And I think that the kids who are like this, they have a hard time to be sitting down to do things, so we have to do some movement. And to me, this proprioceptive The sense is like the answer to everything. Neli, you cannot really go wrong with it by doing the resistive muscle heavy work kind of activities teeth and just honoring if your child is tired, then you do something more resistive with the hands than instead of, like, All the physical activities. But if you do too much movement, you can go wrong with it because it can be too activating. For you, about the proprioceptive sense, it's really the safest place to start.

Munira:

And it's why in in my Programs. And when I see kids 1 to 1, I always start with the program. Okay.

Anouk:

And I know also that you use that as a way to help Children with their writing, for children that are struggling with that, I think it's really different than what in they will do in most schools, Anyway, for children who needs help writing, what can you suggest parents translate that to writing? Because I would say From the get go, I don't see the relationship between the 2.

Munira:

Actually, it affects kids' self esteem and confidence quite a lot when you just Do more of the writing practice without addressing the skills that they really need. Like, the writing is just the, Tip of the iceberg, and it's really a reflection of other things that they need help with in their body. And the way I look at it is I I look at The whole body, and I use what I call a no writing way to help kids' writing, which many parents find quite A relief almost. That doesn't know.

Anouk:

Lots of kids too, I'm sure.

Munira:

In the kids. Yes. The kid older kids. I have parents say that they Told their child that they're gonna use a no writing way to help their writing right away. They're kind of really curious about it. So

Anouk:

Much more on board from the get go, I'm sure.

Munira:

Yeah. Yeah. And it it's because well, the the writing, it it it's a a reflection of the child's Sensory processing and strength and coordination. So to write, you have to really look big first. If we look at Child's body awareness, their strength, their their coordination, and you have to have this awareness of your body to really first even be able to comfortable to sit still To to write. Or even if you're standing and moving, but there's still an element of stillness when writing.

Anouk:

It's hard to write when you're moving at the Same thing. Definitely. I've tried to do it, and walking and writing at the same time is not good.

Munira:

Yeah. I I do it quite a bit Because I I have a clipboard that I will stand and write with, and Yeah. I get stiff when I sit. So I like to be moving Quite a lot. So but even you're more still when you're writing. Right? So you have to have this body awareness of of your body to know where your body is, and then you have To have spatial awareness to know where your body is related to other things. And, you know, for writing, you have to have lots of spatial awareness and con understanding of spatial concepts to know How to form the the letters if it's going top to bottom or across or around and putting all of that that together. And then you also have to have The strength and stability so that you can kind of hold your hands and your fingers and have that stability.

Anouk:

The trunk and the arms Need to be strong enough and stable enough, basically.

Munira:

Yeah. A steady base so that you can control with your hands and fingers. And often when kids are pressing Too hard when they write or their hands are getting sore from writing is because they don't have a study base. But before even course, people always think, oh, we need to improve core strength and And their shoulder strength first. But before that, you have to first really activate the body and help the body feel aware because you get Sensory input first goes to the brain, and then that affects motor output. So it makes sense. We first need the sense sensory awareness before strength. If that makes does that

Anouk:

make Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you need to know where your body is before the strength comes after knowing where the body is. Yeah.

Munira:

Yeah. Yeah. Otherwise, it's too hard to on the strength if you don't know where your body is. So that's what I do for us in my program is we start with this proprioceptive sense, and we develop this body awareness. And it's it's a program for handwriting. But, really, what happens is kids' Self esteem and confidence is the biggest thing that develops.

Anouk:

In general, like, often in school, we focus on what's Not going well. So if you're not writing well, we're gonna practice that more Yeah. Which is hard for self esteem because you're doing more of what you're not good at. Yeah. Which is not the best. But when you focus on something else that makes it at the end that you're writing better Without even trying? Oh. Good. That's it.

Anouk:

It's the same thing as I have trouble regulating my emotions. I'm working on Jumping and trampoline or jumping in a bed and suddenly I'm having less trouble regulating my emotion, how great that is.

Munira:

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And it's really interesting because sometimes when you develop their body awareness, one of the things that happens in my program is that parents say that their child is scaling the rock wall all of a sudden now and because they have the strength and coordination. And at the same time as that, As their confidence comes as well. Like, can you imagine can scale this rock wall? Your confidence also comes in. It turns many other areas. And although I love seeing kids interested in and choosing and wanting to write because they have the strength and coordination stuff to do, so my my Favorite thing that comes up is that they feel, like, good about themselves, and they have confidence to try new and different things and See they can see that they can do things as well, which is, I I think, quite empowering for them.

Munira:

And, also, when you support parent parents To do things, I think parents feel good and that they understand their child more. They can feed them more. And that that must have, a knock on effect On your kids'

Anouk:

Sure. Sure. Sure. When parents feel more comfortable and more confident in what they're doing, And it has an effect on the kids, for sure. The the ripple effect is clear for me on that front. So, yeah, if you're, Like, empower the parents with the knowledge and tools to help their kids, then automatically it translate. And if they understand All those sensory things, it's not helping just for the writing. It's helping for so many other things, including the emotional regulation, and so It's helping way more largely than just writing.

Anouk:

I love interpreting on one thing that has a ripple effect positively on other things, how great that is.

Munira:

But the brain is so amazing

Anouk:

Yeah.

Munira:

To to be able to to do that. And you're looking just beyond, like, muscles And strength and coordination. I love that it affects so many things and how it's also this whole connection piece with your person and how that creates That sense of safety

Anouk:

Mhmm.

Munira:

As well. And I I really love working with parents. I'm biased. I am a parent, I guess, as well. But the parents, they're so attuned to their kids.

Anouk:

Mhmm.

Munira:

And, also, we're able to work with parents have their own deep intuition About that. So once they just know the information, they're able to just take off with it and to come up with their own in their own ideas, just having that understand standing. And I feel like I'm just kick starting things for them, and then they take it off. And I'm always amazed by all the great ideas that they come up with. It's the same child. Yeah. Yeah.

Anouk:

They know their child, and it works well. Yeah. And that that's always what I say. Like, you know your child's best, so take what you were given as Information and suggestion and choose and pick what works for your family and your children. Don't don't do everything and adapt. But sometimes that's the hard part. It's adapting every information that gets in because there are so many, and someone are contradicting one another. And so it's Cleaning that and making sure it works.

Munira:

That's that's not

Anouk:

part of

Munira:

online, like, programs and online support for parents now, which is I think it's nice because we're moving from just working on people's kids or working with the kids. And I think it's so important to be Working more closely with the parents because Mhmm. That's who you're seeing all the time. And not that the parents they don't have to become the teacher or something else. You know? That's not that idea at all. You're staying the parent and parenting your child with this new knowledge and new tools and able to help them on a daily Basis. But also often parents are given program to go home and do this program, but there's not the support in between to hope that

Anouk:

Which is very important to just what we're talking, adapting it to your reality.

Munira:

Adapting. And as it That's what I really like about my on online program is that I get to support the parents throughout the the 10 weeks of the program. Mhmm. It's It's much about supporting parents as it is about helping the kids as well. It's what I would want as a parent as well. So

Anouk:

Again, understanding and and I would say sometimes as parents, we just we don't have the energy, and I think that's okay too. And we don't have to beat ourselves about that. And sometimes I it did happen to me and it happens to every parent. In some moments in our life, We don't have the energy to learn new stuff to help our children because we're maxed out. And that's okay. We will do later. At some point, we will have that energy, and we can do it then. It's not there's no point in trying to do it all at the same times because it's not gonna work and just make us feel guilty.

Munira:

Yeah. Yeah. It's not meant for that at at all as well. It's not meant for parents to feel Yeah. Guilty At at all. And that's actually another thing that comes up a lot is that parents often will wonder, you know, did is their writing or coordination or even their emotional Skills. Is it the way that it is because we didn't do it right? You know? And I always say that it's it's got nothing to do with you not doing things right. And often, they're obviously, they're doing things right because they're coming right? And, it's all it's just brain science.

Munira:

It's just how the brain is working. It's not you. You've done everything right, and they are where they're at now because of you doing what you are are saying. And In

Anouk:

general, my basis is if you're asking yourself the question, if I'm a good parent, you're a good parent.

Munira:

Yes.

Anouk:

If you're not asking yourself a question, Maybe start. But if you're asking yourself a question, you're a good parents because all good parents ask themselves if they're good parents and try to be better parents. I think that's the basic of a good parent. It's the only definition of being a good parent.

Munira:

You just always wanna do the best for your child. Does that Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. It's even a little harder when you've got kids with different kinda needs that you may not be used to or others are not used to Yeah. As well. Nice to have a place, I think, as parents. Right? You feel like you got your hands held and supported Yeah.

Munira:

A lot.

Anouk:

And I generally asked that question at the beginning, but I totally forgot. So why are you doing what you're doing? I love to know the why behind what people do. So you you're an OT, but why and you're working with sensory specifically, which, Like, OT can work in different lots of different things. Why did you choose that field?

Munira:

Yeah. And I actually really it was a total The accident that I became an occupational therapist. I started off as a, biomedical engineering And with the intent to go to med school. Because I always knew I'd want I wanted to work with kids since I was a kid. And I did 1 year of it, and I absolutely hated it. And then, Like, just a few weeks before I was gonna start the next year, I was really not looking forward to it. And my mom told me about occupational therapy, and I'm, oh, okay. That sounds alright.

Munira:

I know I don't wanna be a physical therapist or a speech therapist, so this is the other one. And I saw a picture of it was basically a sensory integration clinic. I saw a picture Like swings in a clinic and kids inside of it. Now, yes, that's what I wanna do. I That's yeah.

Anouk:

I would say OT gyms and Physical therapist gym for pediatrics often looks very fun.

Munira:

Yeah. I saw that, and I was just but it's actually what I did do. I've done it for 25 years Now working with kids with sensory processing needs, so I feel in some deeper level, I kind of maybe knew what I needed. And then I also have a kid with sensory Needs and differences as well, and I recognize so many in myself as well. Lockdown, I broke my wrist, then it was hard to work, like, directly with kids Then and my son started a YouTube channel, and he said, you should make videos too. And then That led up to my whole online program, which I've been doing now for 3 years. So

Anouk:

Love that. Sorry. Yeah. It's your kid that got you into doing Videos. Love that.

Munira:

Yeah. He's only 8. He started a YouTube, channel during lockdown, and He actually, he's in my videos as well for for my program because I get I try and show parents what they can do with their own child, and I want them to get Not being all, like, amazing and perfect as well because it doesn't have to be perfect. I'm always saying that, you know, good enough is is fine. And I I do the activities with, my son so that other parents can see.

Anouk:

Yeah. And you see the reality of not just, like, interacting with the doll, All which comply all the time, but a real child doesn't comply all the time.

Munira:

Yeah. Exactly. It's not just written as a list on paper. You get to kinda see what it really looks like.

Anouk:

Yeah. Which is sometimes the hard part, like applying the recommendation.

Munira:

Yeah. Yeah.

Anouk:

Yeah. So I love that it's very visual. Thank you, Bert.

Munira:

Yeah. So that that's basically how I got into into what I've done. It's kind of a little Funny. It was kind of a quick decision, but sometimes those quick decisions are are your intuition just knowing.

Anouk:

It's just the right thing to do right now. Love that story.

Munira:

Yeah. Yeah. So yes. I've I've been very lucky. I've worked with so many amazing parents and kids along the way, and I feel that I've learned so much from parent the other parents as well for me on my parenting journey, and we're kind of all all in it together.

Anouk:

Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And is there any resource you would like to share with the community that was your helpful for you in your parenting journey?

Munira:

Yes. I really like a lot of this, the ND affirming work that is is is out there now as as well. So there's learn, play, Thrive is a a podcast, and they share a lot of information from autistic voices or people who have The diagnosis that they're sharing about. And I also like, in England, we have Naomi Fisher. She's Psychologists or psychotherapist, I get a bit mixed up sometime, but she shares a lot as well about children who have had Difficulty in school or a school has had difficulty reading the child at school and on ways to support them emotionally as well. And I I like a lot of her work as well. She's got a couple of books out there too. Okay.

Munira:

Yeah. We'll put all the links

Anouk:

in the show notes if you wanna look them up. And I just wanna press like like, ND affirming is neurodivergent Firming for those who are not are very specific. And, like, the sensory thing that we just talked is often our The our learning disabilities, it can be anybody Yeah. Process sensory things in some way. Process

Munira:

sensory information and how our own, quirks and our own things that we have difficulty with that with in a neuro Divergent community, it's more pronounced. And Yeah. It's more about not seeing that it's something wrong with you at all. It's just something that you need more of And that you should have access to your, what, sensory supports and strategies at all times and other people being understanding of that As well, not that you need to be changing to fit into a certain mold, if that makes sense. You should be Having access to your strategies and supports. Yeah.

Anouk:

I'll definitely have an episode with, like we're gonna dig more into what that is all. But

Munira:

That'd be a whole rabbit hole, I think.

Anouk:

Yeah. Definitely. Well, I just wanted to put a little note on that so people are not completely lost if they're not, familiar with the terms. Yeah. So thank you very much for that. And if parents want to learn more about your writing program and if they need support, where can they find you?

Munira:

I have a, Facebook group called Helping Kids Write. So that's my my Facebook group where I share information. And I also have an a 10 weeks online program called foundations for writing, which runs every few months. And I run this free workshop every few months. Okay. It's called Beyond Pencil Frost, and I run that every few months. And then my program runs after that. But you you can find out all of that in my helping kids write group.

Munira:

And my website is o t, the number 4, at kids.co.uk.

Anouk:

Okay. So I'm we're gonna put all those links in the show notes as well so people can find them more easily. Great. And I I always say if you felt a nudge, if that might be something that works for us, I always encourage you to go and Check more information because often we know as parents what's going on, but we know without knowing. But when we come across the right knowledge, suddenly it clicks. And when it clicks, I always encourage parents to just go for it and go check that more because often we're right. There's lots of chances that it is Part of it, anyway, might not be the only thing, but it might be part of what's going on. So if anything resonated, I encourage you to explore a bit more.

Anouk:

So thank you so much for being with us today, Myra.

Munira:

I'm so

Anouk:

glad you joined me today and took that time out of your intense life to focus on finding a new way to parent that works for you and your kids. To get the episodes at Soon as Day Drop, make sure to subscribe to the podcast, and please left a rating and review so other parents can find it too. Also, check out all the free resources on my website at family moments dot c a so you can take action on what's the most important for you right now. And take a deep breath. Keep going. We're all in this together.