051 – Gifted and Twice Exceptional Kids – With Danika Maddocks

Anouk:
Welcome to the podcast. Today, we will be talking about one of the reason one of the root cause of why, kids can be emotionally intense, and it's giftedness or twice exceptionality that go end in end. Don't worry. If you have no idea what that means, we will be talking all about that. And to do that, we are having Danica as a guest. So let's welcome Danica over on the podcast. Welcome to Parenting the Intensity. Where we'll talk all about how we can drop the general parenting advice, that doesn't work with our emotionally intense kids anyway, and let go of the unrealistic expectations society puts on us as parents.

Anouk:
Together we'll find solutions and ideas that work for you and your kids. Chances are deep down you know what they need. But you need a little encouragement to keep going on other days and permission to do things differently and help you fully trust that you already are a wonderful parent to your exceptional but challenging kids. Are you tired of feeling overwhelmed and uncertain when it comes to parenting your emotionally intense child? Do you often find yourself playing with guilt, fearing that you're not doing enough to help them navigate their intense emotion? You are not alone. Many parents face these challenges and struggle to find the right path forward. But take a deep breath, there's hope. That's why I created the parenting the intensity community. Imagine having a clear roadmap tailored specifically to your child's unique needs and your family's reality.

Anouk:
Picture feeling empowered and confident in your parenting, knowing that you are providing the support and understanding your child needs. It may seem like an untenable dream right now, but I'm here to tell you that it is within reach. Come join us for our monthly group support to connect with other parents and get supported with your challenge right now. You also get 1 on 1 chat and audio office hours for the things that you're really not ready to share in the group, workshop, tools, courses to help you in the process of finding that balance of parenting in a way that works for you, your child, and your family. Welcome to the podcast, Danica. I'm really glad to have you over.

Danika Maddocks:
Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to talk today.

Anouk:
Can you start by introducing yourself and sharing with us why why you do what you do?

Danika Maddocks:
Yeah. So, my name is Danica. So I have spent most of my career focused on supporting gifted and twice exceptional kids and their families. I grew up knowing I was gifted, and in the last couple of years learned I'm twice exceptional. And I've just always been drawn to really bright kids who are having a hard time for some reason, either because they're emotionally intense or have big behaviors or struggle in school or at home. And so I've always just, like, really got those kids and love supporting them and helping them and their families. It's really fun for me. And it's so hard for families with gifted and twice exceptional kids to find resources that fit their kids.

Danika Maddocks:
So it's really, like, I'm passionate about it, and it's enjoyable for me to kinda spread the knowledge in that area. Great. Thank you. So we'll jump right in the topic since you already addressed it. What is twice exceptional? And I

Anouk:
would just start to maybe we before we dive into the Twice Exceptional. I think giftedness is something that is often, like, we think giftedness is one thing, but it's not really what it what it really is. So can we start by giftedness and, like, a bit of a clarifying what it is so we are all on the same basis?

Danika Maddocks:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I'll say there's really not consensus in the giftedness field about the definition of giftedness either. But so and actually, like, the way I think about giftedness is really, in terms of a like, someone who's gifted has kind of an unusually high ability or potential in certain areas. And usually, it's like really, advanced verbal skills or very advanced reasoning and thinking and problem solving skills. It can also be really strong visual spatial reasoning skills, almost like engineering abilities, or really strong quantitative reasoning abilities. And, like, every gifted person is has, like, really strong abilities or potential in one of those areas. And so giftedness can be associated I think, like, what what's hard for parents about identifying giftedness in their kids and especially, right, I know your podcast is for parents with kind of intense kids.

Danika Maddocks:
So I think what can be hard is, like, it's it's very hard to know that your kid is advanced because you don't usually spend that much time with other kids.

Anouk:
Many you

Danika Maddocks:
know, so it's sort of like they're just your kid. They seem normal or you may notice that they're bright, but I think a lot of parents are hesitant to call their kid gifted or to think if they might be because there's a lot of taboo and stigma around this idea that then you think your kid is better or it's like elite in some way. So I've seen a lot of parents who were like, well, they taught themselves to read when they were 3 and they do all these things, but I don't know if they're gifted. You know? Yeah. And they're the real hesitance. And I think a lot you know, intelligence is, like, highly heritable. So a lot of people with gifted kids have gifted parents who I think are also like, well, this seems normal to me. I was like this as a kid, and they might not know that they themselves are also gifted.

Danika Maddocks:
But it can it could definitely be missed or hard to identify, where people may just be, you know, feel uncomfortable assuming that about their kid. But it's a really useful thing to know, especially if your kid is also emotionally intense because I think when a kid is has is kind of wired in an emotionally intense way and they're really gifted, it creates like a combination where they're emotionally intense and they're really good at arguing their point of view or, you know, figuring out a new way to do something or telling you why you're doing it wrong or, you know, they use their very capable brain, can make their intensity just manifest in a specific, you know, specific or more challenging way sometimes.

Anouk:
Yeah. It it it kind of increase each other, basically. And

Danika Maddocks:
Yeah.

Anouk:
I think what, like, what we often think about is the kids that is bright in school, like, that has good grades. And I think that's not always the case. Right. And when it's not the case, we dismiss the giftedness really fast. But

Danika Maddocks:
That's that's a good point. Yeah. Especially when kids get into, like, elementary school. Mhmm. Right? Is that a lot of gifted kids are good in school, right, and, like and maybe very academically advanced. And giftedness and academic ability or, like, IQ and academic ability are highly correlated, but they're not the same thing. And so some gifted kids who are twice exceptional, you know, have other exceptionalities that might make some school tasks hard. They might be dyslexic or have a dysgraphia or things like that where they can't perform well academically.

Danika Maddocks:
But then also a lot of emotionally intense gifted kids just school is not a good fit. They may even have really strong academic capacity or potential, but they're like, oh, this being told what to do and having to do it in the teacher's way or like these tasks are not interesting so they may look like they're not good in school even though they may have very strong academic abilities because it's it's not, you know, it's a poor fit in other ways. So, yeah, it's not the stereotype of like a gifted kid who's just like, you know, I wanna go to school and I wanna get straight a's and I get a 100 on everything and I always follow the rules. No. That that's just one example

Anouk:
of what a gifted kid can look like. Yeah. I guess that that's also a gifted kids, but they're not all that way.

Danika Maddocks:
Yes. Exactly. Exactly.

Anouk:
So what would be the difference with, a twice exceptional kits?

Danika Maddocks:
Yeah. So twice exceptional, if folks aren't familiar with that term, it means kind of like exceptional in 2 ways with exceptional meaning, like, different from the norm, like an exception to the rule, right, exception to the norm. So giftedness is one exception to the norm because that person has really advanced cognitive abilities in one area or very strong cognitive abilities in one area. But then the other exceptionality is, you know, it could be any number of other exceptionalities. So really common and kind of most commonly talked about would be kids who are gifted and also autistic or gifted and have ADHD, they're an ADHDer, gifted with sensory processing differences, gifted with a learning disability like dyslexia, dysgraphia, dyscalculia, things like that. Those are the most common ones that are coming to mind. But it could really be giftedness in any disability to anything that would be called a disability. Okay.

Anouk:
Would a kid's I think that's a trick question, but would a gifted kid with anxiety be considered twice exceptional or just part of being a gifted kid?

Danika Maddocks:
That's a great question. I don't think not all gifted kids are anxious. Some research has shown that gifted kids are less likely to be anxious actually. Okay. Yeah. So right. I think there's, like, this myth of, like, the troubled genius that, you know, like, gifted folks. But research has some research has shown I think the results are mixed, but some show that gifted kids are just as likely or less likely to be anxious or depressed.

Danika Maddocks:
Some folks consider anxiety a form of twice exceptionality. I haven't in the past. Although my my definition of twice exceptionality keeps evolving a little bit as I keep learning more and, yet it's just as I learn more. So, like, I think about it as kind of like a recently, I've been thinking about it in terms of, like, giftedness plus any other form of neurodivergence. Right? So, that would be all those things I listed. That could be anxiety or depression. It could be OCD or, tics or Tourette's or, you know, any any other way the brain is wired differently. In terms of like for practical purposes, I think it makes sense if your kid is gifted and has, something that also seems to really affect them, you know, or that they just operate differently, It's useful.

Danika Maddocks:
And in in my coaching work, I work with parents with emotionally intense, gifted, or 2 week kids, and it's like the strategies for twice exceptional 2 week kids, are really good for emotionally intense gifted kids even if you don't know if they're twice exceptional, right, or or they're not. It's almost like thinking of emotional intensity is, a way a different way of being wired. Right? So they need a kind of different adaptations and different supports.

Anouk:
Yeah. No matter the reason, basically, it's just Right. The the how it presents itself in the way they react. Yeah. Okay. And, so you you touched on a bit on that, but like first, how would a parent know? Because we we address the fact that some parents don't really wanna say that their kids is maybe gifted. And also, when there's tricepceptionality, and we we've already talked about that previously, but it, it camouflage each other, basically. Yeah.

Anouk:
Yeah. So it it can be harder to spot even. And I I like I had that experience with my older kids. Like, it took until the 10 years before struggle started to be enough that we we like, the bell were was ring and there was something going on other like, until then, it was fine. So Right. What what are we what should we be looking for, basically?

Danika Maddocks:
Mhmm. Yeah. That's a great question. And I think this my answer on this also evolves over time. In my work with families with emotionally intense, gifted, and twice exceptional kids, I've seen, like I really think, like, if your kid is emotionally intense, which they probably are if you're listening to this podcast, it's really worth considering, and they're bright. You know, if you think like, oh, they're bright or they're smart or they seem quick or you know they're gifted or that they have a high IQ or really strong verbal abilities, I think it's worth considering that they very potentially could be twice exceptional. Like a lot of times that emotional intensity I think is a sign of twice exceptionality that's been unidentified And it's interesting because there's a lot of talk in giftedness spaces about gifted kids being more emotionally intense, but, like, research has shown, like, I mean, there's not great research on all of these things, I think. But so far, like, there isn't any research that shows that gifted kids are more emotionally intense.

Danika Maddocks:
I think it stands out a lot more. You know, so we like, I think there's a lot of gifted kids who aren't emotionally intense who you don't really have to think about their giftedness as much or they're just kinda going along, you know, like,

Anouk:
and a lot

Danika Maddocks:
of the families I work with, they almost they figure out the giftedness because their kid is so intense and they're like, what's going on? Oh, this giftedness thing this framework is really helpful for understanding my kids, but a lot of time there's also another neurodivergence or, you know, exceptionality going on that's unidentified. Right? So even like for myself, like, I've been studying twice exceptionality. That's what all my, like, research was on in graduate school. So I've been studying it for over 10 years and it's like 2 years ago I was reading about like less obvious presentations of autism and I was like, wait a second. I did that when I was a kid. Is that a stim? I didn't know that. Right? And it's just amazing to me because my whole life, every all of my experiences were framed in terms of, like, well, you're gifted. So, of course, you're like that or you're gifted.

Danika Maddocks:
So, of course, you're super sensitive and really quick to tears and, you know, all these characteristics were attributed to that. But I think I think I'm autistic and that's what it was all along. But but it looks it can other exceptionalities can look really different in gifted kids. So what I would suggest for parents, I guess, is to, like, learn about less obvious presentations of those different exceptionalities or get curious about them, to see if those descriptions resonate with your kid. And learning from like autistic adults or adults who are ADHDers can be really helpful too because I think, the stereotype of what those different kind of neurotypes look like in kids, that's usually not what it looks like in a gifted kid. And like you said, the the gifted you know, gifted kids can compensate or, you know, they will mask and kind of hide those characteristics or they're so bright that they're going to do well in school, even though certain things are overwhelming or stressful or don't come naturally, you know, they can kind of compensate with their intellect. So just learning about the more subtle ways that it can present can be a helpful way to get curious about, like, oh, maybe this is what's going on for my kid too. Because I'll say too something tricky that happens for a lot of parents is they notice their kid is having a hard time either at home or school or parenting feels really hard or they know they're really emotionally reactive or intense.

Danika Maddocks:
So they seek out an assessment, and the assessment will say, like, well, they're just gifted and anxious. Right? Or, oh, they're just, gifted, and they don't really meet criteria for anything else. But what happens is, like, a lot of psychologists and assessment providers are not trained in giftedness, you know, so they don't really know about how things present in gifted kids or twice exceptional kids and they're not trained in less obvious presentations of autism and ADHD and things like that. So those things get missed. And a lot of times, I'll see families who have had their kids assessed like before, you know, and I'll even read the assessment report. And I'm like, from reading this, you provide enough information for me to tell your kid is probably autistic. But this person concluded that they're not because they just don't know that these are those characteristics. So some families, it's not until their second or third assessment that they learn their kid is twice exceptional,

Anouk:
which is really it's it's very frustrating.

Danika Maddocks:
It's like those those parents are working hard, they're seeking out assessments, they're spending time and money, and they're still not getting the answers they need. So I think so just knowing too, I think a lot of parents will have kind of like they're like, it seems like there's something else going on with my kid, like but I don't know what. And we went and asked this person and they said there's not, but I still think there might be. So sometimes it's just parents trusting their gut too and, you know, looking at different resources to get the information, you know, so they can see like, oh, this resonates with my experience.

Anouk:
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that one is important because, like, I can tell you that the twice exceptional diagnosis I'm giving my kids myself because nobody, like, nobody will give it here for various reasons. But Right. I talk to enough people to know that, like, yeah, they're they're, like, they're ADHD ers, but there's something else going on in autistics and ADHDers. But there's other like, why do you think that we went until 12 and 13 before they were assessed? There is a reason. Right. Right.

Anouk:
Exactly. Exactly. Like they're the like before then, there was no really not enough trouble to assess them. That's why, like, just that for me is a telling, like, a big telling that there's also giftedness that goes on undiagnosed basically in

Danika Maddocks:
Right. Right. And, yeah, I think a lot of times, like, our kids, like, kind of brilliance and all their skills and abilities can you know, when they're gifted, it's like, you know, they just, can hide, like, the things that are hard for them, right, or it looks different. There is interesting research, that has shown basically that, like, gifted I think it's mostly with kids and teens. Like, gifted kids and teens, like, perform they don't perform in the, like, quote, unquote, like, impaired or disabled range on the assessments that are considered the gold standard for each of those things. So for example, like, gifted ADHDers can do an ADHD assessment. You know, they do like a task that's supposed to measure if a kid can manage their attention, and they perform in the average range. Because they are like, I can do this for 2 minutes, like and I like to perform well, and I like new challenging tasks, and I'm gonna do it.

Danika Maddocks:
Right? And they can almost, like, outperform themselves or, like, override the ADHD difficulties in the moment, But then they'll go in for an assessment and they'll say like, oh, this kid is an ADHD. Look, they performed average or, like, a little below average in all of these. But it's it's much more important to, like, talk to the parents, to talk to the kid, to understand what it looks like in real life, how it feels to do certain tasks. Mhmm. Because the same thing is true of kind of the, you know, things that are considered the gold standard of autism. Autistic gifted kids usually perform in the average range. But when you look at qualitative differences and just how they approach life, how they socialize, you can see that. And actually, doctor Donna Henderson is actually a good resource for understanding autism because she talks a lot and has trainings about less obvious presentations of autism, and she always says it's important to look at the subjective experience.

Danika Maddocks:
So you're not just looking at behavior because, like, you're saying, right, it's like, well, the behavior is more or less in the okay range. Right? Or, like, it's not as noticeable. So Yeah.

Anouk:
For sure. Yeah. And I think that's like as you said, not all providers are used to diagnose twice exceptional kids, and it's a lot of nuance in. And correct me if I'm wrong, but things can get more obvious as the expectation increase when the kids are getting older. So it might not show up in if an assessment as 7 year old, but it might show at 14, for example.

Danika Maddocks:
Yes. Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, and there's a lot of adults who are recognizing their own, you know, that they're autistic or that they have ADHD once their kid has been assessed or, you know, it doesn't get identified until that person, like, becomes a parent. And they're like, oh, this really exceeds my capacity now. Like, I can always work really hard and, you know, I didn't think I had ADHD until the demands became too high. And now I realize that I've been compensating and coming up with all these strategies, you know.

Danika Maddocks:
So, yeah, sometimes it's the transition to middle school, the transition to high school or college or first job or having a kid, that you can see the challenges or the things that are stressful become more obvious.

Anouk:
Mhmm. Okay. Great. We will like, we'll have you over again later for more how to deal with those kids. So

Danika Maddocks:
Sure. Sure.

Anouk:
But is there anything about, how to, identify them or, like, something related to that that you want to add before we finish this one?

Danika Maddocks:
So I guess I'll just say in addition to, like, emotional intensity being assigned to me that I would be curious about twice exceptionality, The other things that stand out as really common, you know, if you know your kid is bright or if you're pretty sure, you know, they're bright or gifted, and then some signs of twice accept potential twice exceptionality would also just be things like having a hard time with routines and transitions. Like, I hear from families all the time that, like, the morning routine or the bedtime routine are really tough or long or difficult, right, or if hygiene tasks are difficult, or if things like if your kid is a really selective eater or has a hard time sleeping, or if they have a lot of, medical conditions, like all those things are more common for ADHDers and autistic kids. So those are just other, things that parents would have noticed about their kids, but may maybe didn't know or potentially related to being twice exceptional. So those are some other common ones. Or if they're if they're really having a hard time at school or hate school or there's something that's not working there, it's worth looking into also.

Anouk:
You're kinda describing my kids to a t right now. You're like, check. Check.

Danika Maddocks:
Yeah. Yes. All those things. All those things. Yeah. Or if they're constantly negotiating with you and fighting or saying mean things, like, those are all this kind

Anouk:
of, like,

Danika Maddocks:
hyper reactivity. Yeah. Yeah.

Anouk:
So We were kind of the autistic description and then dialed more the ADHDers now.

Danika Maddocks:
Yeah. Yeah. And there's overlap. Yes.

Anouk:
Yes, there's a mix, but yeah. Yes, exactly. Definitely. Like, our growing is is often more the ADHD or tendencies.

Danika Maddocks:
Yeah. Although the but PDA autistics, that's one that I hear a lot of, like, constant negotiation. They're always arguing. They're always telling me no, and that makes me wonder about PDA too because that's like Yeah. A pervasive drive for autonomy.

Anouk:
Yeah.

Danika Maddocks:
So, yeah, that's where it gets tricky where it's like you can learn and then you could always look for an assessment provider who understands these things where you could get more clarity and go really in-depth. Yeah. For sure.

Anouk:
Yeah. PDA is another thing that we like, I need to to find a guest to talk about that because I've had a few requests.

Danika Maddocks:
I would love to talk about that anyway.

Anouk:
Another another topic you could talk about. Great. I'll I'll find that now. So thank you very much. Where can people can can find you if they wanna learn more and work with you?

Danika Maddocks:
Sure. Yeah. So my coaching company is called the Gifted Learning Lab, and the website is gifted learning lab.com. I have a free weekly email. There's a freebie on there. As a freebie on there.

Anouk:
Big one. Yeah. Yeah. Great. Thank you. I'm gonna put the link to that in the in the show notes for sure.

Danika Maddocks:
Awesome. Thank you for being here. Thanks for having me.

Anouk:
I am so glad you joined me today and took that time out of your intense life to focus on finding a new way to parent that works for you and your kids. To get the episodes at Soon as Day Drop, make sure to subscribe to the podcast. And please leave everything in review so other parents can find it too. Also, check out all the free resources on my website at familymoments. Ca so you can take action on what's the most important for you right now. And take a deep breath. Keep going. We're all in this together.