019 – Sleep Solutions for Intense Kids – With Meredith Brough

Anouk:

Do you read all the thing, listen to all the things, take all the courses, and you know all of things about parenting, but you struggle to actually apply them in your real life, then you're in luck. I just started the Parenting the Intensity community, which is a, monthly group support for parents of emotionally intense kids. And the goal is exactly that, to take all the information you learn from the podcast and from all the other sources and adapt them so that it work for your child and your family, your reality. Because things can work, but not always the same way for everybody. So the same thing might need to be adapted to work for you. And sometimes it's hard to sort through everything to choose the right things that so that you can really enjoy your life and your kids, not always being afraid of the next outburst. You can join by clicking on the link, initial notes or on the website. Welcome to the podcast.

Anouk:

Today, we'll address a topic that is your really hard for a lot of parents, which is sleep. Sleep is already a odd topic in the parenting world. But when we have different kids, it can be very challenging and very hard to find a way that works yours for us. So to today's guest is the perfect fit for that. Meredith Bro your has found her true calling as a sleep coach, helping mothers re rejuvenate, connect, and find peace by restoring their sleep and understanding their children better. Her baby centered sleep system, developed over the last 6 years, caters to children of all temperance, offering nurturing and tear free sleep methods. But that's not all. Meredith Impacts extends beyond her coaching.

Anouk:

She owns the Sweet Lumber podcast, your where she shares invaluable insight on sleep and parenting. And she's also committed to teaching and mentoring other sleep coaches and consultants in their journeys your to success. So let's welcome Meredith to the podcast. Your Welcome to Parenting the Intensity, your where we'll talk all about how we can drop the general parenting advice that doesn't work with our emotionally intense kids anyway, your and let go of the unrealistic expectations society puts on us as parents. Together, we'll find solution and ideas that work for you and your kids. Your Chances are, deep down, you know what they need. But you need a little encouragement to keep going on other days and permission to do things differently and help you fully trust that you already are a wonderful parent to your exceptional but challenging kids.

Meredith Brough:

Your

Anouk:

your Welcome, Meredith. I'm super glad to have you here today, and we'll dress. A topic that is very hot topic in the parenting world in general. Sleep is probably the thing that we talk the most as new parents. So I'm really glad to have you here to talk about that today.

Meredith Brough:

Thank you. I'm looking forward to this.

Anouk:

So can you start by telling other community, who you are, and why you do what you do.

Meredith Brough:

Sure. So I'm a mom of 5 and been married for 27 years, which a really long time, especially when you know that my husband and I only dated for 10 days when we got engaged. Your And then we go engage for 5 months. I'm really proud of that story because it's crazy. It doesn't really fit me that much, but your It worked out. So funny, But I pretty passionate about helping mothers. I definitely love the sleep side of things. But my favorite part is really the mentoring connection, you know, having heart to hearts, being there for them when no one else is because your Mothers let me into their lives in a really intimate way.

Meredith Brough:

It's not just that I might go in their bedroom, you know, in their baby's room. Those are both very intimate things, trusting things. But also they cry to me. They call me when they're your In the depths of postpartum depression or anxiety. And they confided me how hard it is when they may not tell your Anyone else. Hopefully, they tell a therapist. They don't trust anyone because their struggles are really hard and no one relates. Your, at least it feels that way, you know? And so I, I really love that side of my work.

Meredith Brough:

I am really, really passionate about protecting babies. I don't think anyone really understands them. Like in general, they don't. So that's probably a big your Huge percentage actually of my work too is just educating parents on, the nature of babies and their development and what they need to thrive. Your So I really love that side of my work, and it's really driven the innovative creative solutions that I've come up with. Your I specialize in working with high needs, sensitive, and spirited kiddos. Mhmm. And maybe someday some of my baby clients will, your You'll be diagnosed with sensory issues or ADHD or autism, so they could be really challenging.

Meredith Brough:

The biggest thing is these kids are challenging when it comes to sleep. So A lot of my clients' kids have easy babies during the day and then tough babies at night. And, again, people can't relate to that. So it's just beautiful work. Your

Anouk:

Yeah. And I think that's, like, sleep is such a vulnerable thing for everybody because when we don't get enough sleep, your it can get messy real fast.

Meredith Brough:

Exactly. Yes. Yes.

Anouk:

And at the same time, we have a culture your That pushes parents to make sure their kids or baby sleeps really, really early. I think it's changing slowly, but still the mainstream culture is like, at 6 weeks, your baby should sleep in their bed for an entire night. End. Entire night in the eyes of lots of people means 12 hours, which makes no sense for a true 6 weeks old baby. But it Still is the message that we hear a lot. So I I think it's very important to reframe that, and I'm super glad to have you. And I can definitely relate. I I have 3 kids with 3 really different sleep pattern, and your they all add their challenges.

Anouk:

My first was sleeping really well. That 12 hours in a in a row at 6 weeks, I I add that.

Meredith Brough:

Your Yeah.

Anouk:

But then my second one, it took 6 years. So it it really is different from 1 child to another. And your I feel often the parent feel it's their fault.

Meredith Brough:

Okay.

Anouk:

So I would love for you to talk a bit about that.

Meredith Brough:

Well, they blame themselves your Because the culture teaches parents that babies are the same, and they just lump them into 1 big category, and they don't think think about the fact that we all have such different personalities and that doesn't develop after we're babies.

Anouk:

It's like the It develops inside the wombs.

Meredith Brough:

And that's the way they're designed, and it's beautiful. But if we could just focus on that a ton more, it would help so much when it comes to the pressure that we put on ourselves your and the pressure you put on them as well. Yeah. So I really focus on the fact that kids are individuals and different. Your There's a lot of movement now where, you know, maybe an attachment parenting, bed sharing type of parenting. Your They are talking about this a lot more, and I love seeing that because when I started my business, I was a lone voice, and that was really hard. But your That's not really true. My baby doesn't need to eat at night.

Meredith Brough:

My baby sleeps for 12 hours, so whatever. Well, the disconnect is why there's a big your Chasm between these 2 groups. Mhmm.

Anouk:

And

Meredith Brough:

it all comes down to these differences in in babies. There are easygoing babies, And that's why sleep training is still popular because it works for some people and they swear by it. You know, 2 or 3 minutes of crying and the baby sleeps great forever.

Anouk:

Your It's

Meredith Brough:

really interesting, but that's true. And then there's these other babies that are so clingy. And and I don't use that word in a negative way, it's so descriptive. You know? Yeah.

Anouk:

Yeah. Yeah. They they need the parent much more.

Meredith Brough:

Yeah. And and they hang and cling to their parent, and your They thrive on the connection. 1 of my past clients told me that on she had not ever thought or considered she would bed share. Your, and she was against it because of safe sleep recommendations. And when she met her baby, She had this intuitive feeling that this baby needs to bed share. And so she did for like 18 months. And when she and I were working together, she was touched out. Your The baby girl was very restless, was connected all night long and biting, and all the things were really getting to her.

Meredith Brough:

So that's that's okay. That's why I have a job. Your So back to what you were saying, why we blame ourselves. I wish I knew, but it is very natural for women, especially to just be hard on themselves. Your I have a hard time remembering to celebrate the positives. I am always hung up on what I didn't do or what I did wrong. And so I think it's our nature, your But also, there's that pressure of comparing your child to another, thinking it's all on you, thinking that you're the one responsible for their progress and For them to perform well, I guess is because you know how people say, what's your baby? Like you have an easy baby and they always ask about sleep. Is your baby sleeping? Your, you know, and so right away, there's this pressure of performing for you.

Anouk:

Mhmm.

Meredith Brough:

Whether or not my child's meeting up to par, my child is Easy enough. But what we should be saying is something like, tell me about your baby, you know? Yeah.

Anouk:

What are you enjoying? Life. Sleeping is not really an issue as long as it's an issue for the parents, basically. Right. Well, both of them. Too tired, then it becomes an issue. And we

Meredith Brough:

don't know. What about when you when it's terrible? That that makes those moms feel terrible that it's not going well. But it's not their fault, and it's your That's why I spent so much time talking about the difference in babies.

Anouk:

Yeah. Absolutely.

Meredith Brough:

Have, like, a lottery ticket when you have a baby. Yes. You can have have 5 kids that are all really high needs, or you could have 1 high need kid in a couple of easy ones. It's just You have no idea what you're getting. I can't control it. And if people understood their babies better than we would, you know, just become a mother and have a clean slate your For both of us, I guess, for the baby and the mom.

Anouk:

Yeah. Definitely. And I think, like, the pressure, it comes so fast. And as soon as you share that sleep is not going well, people are throwing all those tips and tricks at you that don't necessarily fit. But then you feel bad because those things that work for them don't work for you. And you immediately think that's my fault. I cannot do it properly. That's why it's not working.

Anouk:

And that's how people make you feel often. It's not just in our ad.

Meredith Brough:

Actually, that's a really good way of explaining it. Thank you. Yeah. And and and what I see is that if you have a very easygoing baby, it could just be one thing. And so people all over the Facebook sleep groups. They're like, oh my gosh. I got this white noise machine or this swaddle, and my kid's sleeping right now. And then there's these parents with the Babies that have that nature of of needing more contact, they're called signalers instead of self soothers.

Meredith Brough:

Mhmm. There's actual research on this. It's pretty

Anouk:

cool.

Meredith Brough:

Okay. But those babies, It's just not on the radar to be independent. It takes a lot longer for them to sleep well. It takes a lot longer for them to, to start acting independent your, and we can't force it. It's all the support that helps them get there, you know? So anyways, those parents have to do everything. So It's funny because from the beginning in my business, I've always believed in checking every box. So I believe in let's use every holistic principle. Your And because I have seen it be a helpful thing, helping babies have some independent sleep skills is good.

Meredith Brough:

I just don't force it on them. I do it in a nurturing, slow way. So I check every box, and then we see sleep improve. And parents know they've done everything in their power, and it's time to let go and just be there for them when they don't sleep well. And I also teach them about development and how that affects their baby's

Anouk:

sleep and

Meredith Brough:

help them recognize what's going on. And so it's just kind of a more peaceful experience. Cause we've checked every box. Your We know how to bounce back if things go astray. And we're not expecting sleep through the night. We're expecting, hopefully, when things are good, 4 to 6 hours, you know, something like that. So we can feel rejuvenated. But when things are rough, we understand why and we're there for them.

Meredith Brough:

And then guess what? We end up with a super healthy child. Who's healthy in every single way possible, you know, just thriving Mhmm. For the rest of your life as much as, you know, you have any control over because there's a lot of other factors later.

Anouk:

But Yes. Of course. It's easier when they're little.

Meredith Brough:

I focus on your Optimal for that child. I mean, optimize their sleep. And so that's to their best ability. And Mhmm. If you can imagine, those are some Really great messages for parents instead of some of the others.

Anouk:

It's different. Like, I love that you're saying optimal for that child because for 1 child, sleeping 6 hours might be optimal. For another one, it might be 8. Like, it it changed from 1 child to another. It changed from an adult to another. I need less leave than my husband for sure. I can function totally correctly with 2 hours less than him. But why do we expect kids to all need the same amount of sleep your When we know that's not the case for adults.

Anouk:

It it's weird.

Meredith Brough:

Well, there's a lot of things that are weird, and people are just used to them and don't think about them. Your thinking that if we just leave a baby to cry when they wake up in the morning, that they won't wake up as early. And so they do things like crib hour your And that's really common. And people just think this is what you do, and it works. And in my eyes, I'm like, no. Your child's awake, and you're not with them. That's your Yeah. Like, they're alone, but we're built to be together.

Meredith Brough:

And I'm used to these tougher kids. Maybe with the easy ones, They would just sleep longer. But the ones that I work with, they're, like, hopping up and down their bed and having a heyday, having fun, or they're screaming your And it doesn't help you get get them because these are babies and toddlers and children who don't calm down unless they're touched, unless they're held.

Anouk:

Your yeah. Yeah. They need help to calm down.

Meredith Brough:

Leaving them is a terrible idea because we're we're actually harming them. So it's just

Anouk:

your Yeah. And you talk about singlers versus self suitors. I would love to know more about that. What does that mean?

Meredith Brough:

So there is some research done, and What they found was that there's 2 different kinds of babies. They're singlers and self soothers. The self soothers are these kids I've been talking about for years that are angelic, predictable, easygoing. The ones who'll just, like, look around a room and doze off. They'll suck on their thumb and fall asleep. They often move actually start sleeping well on their own parents. Don't even do anything. It's craziness.

Meredith Brough:

Maybe there's, there's definitely different tiers. Your, you know, some kids are barely going, but they have a little bit of a challenge. And so we work on sleep and some of these tricks and the holistic things, and then they sleep well. So So then when it comes to the signalers, I mean, that word just says it all.

Anouk:

Yes. It

Meredith Brough:

really just like I said earlier, these are babies who have no interest in independence. Actually, they hate it. They're the ones that are more upset with separation. They're very, very attached. Your They're very regulated through you. When they don't feel well, they need the comfort, and they don't turn inward and and soothe themselves. It's your I need you. And so no matter what, I'm gonna wake up and and call you to help me.

Meredith Brough:

So that's kinda what I I focus on in in my work is let's really naturally and lovingly nurture some independence. Foster is another word for it.

Anouk:

Your

Meredith Brough:

Mhmm. Really focus on security and responsiveness and help these babies just feel a lot more safe and comfortable when they're by themselves or when they wake up. So there's some activities that parents do to get there. And then they just learn how responsiveness is what fosters that independence that we want. So it's not all left up to waiting, like some, attachment style sleep solutions are. Fostering. It's more actively working on some of these things, but never forcing.

Anouk:

Yeah. And I think that's interesting because The message out there is so on. If your baby doesn't learn to self soothe, they're never gonna be able to sleep, which for starters, it makes a bit no sense. People sleep in life. It's not gonna ruin them forever. But still, I think it's Interesting because it goes another way. It's another message. Like, it's not because they're not able to self suit by themselves.

Anouk:

They need help to learn how to. And I'm I'm guessing we can see that also in other parts of their life. Those kids that need more support don't just need more support to sleep. They need more support your Absolutely. Everywhere.

Meredith Brough:

Yes. And these kids who are, like, holding on to their parents for dear life when you go in a public place or there's other kids around, a lot of them will warm up and then go out and be active and, and hang out with the kids. Cause they're kind of like your testing the waters or watching things. I they're usually highly sensitive, and very smart, your So as they become more and more secure and find that attachment with their parents, such a safe, reliable thing, then say you become more independent. Naturally, this behavior that you see now, a few months down the road, they might run off the second you get into that room. And that's one of the things that I've loved seeing as I've worked with clients for longer periods or I stayed in touch because your Some of my clients are I didn't even mention this earlier. I have a school. I teach sleep coach sleep coaches, and your Long term.

Anouk:

Yeah.

Meredith Brough:

And that's it's it's one of my favorite testimonials I get when the people write me and say, you know, your My kid is totally different now. I mean, in the last year, they've just become so independent and so, I guess, confident your And reassured. And this is usually around 1 or 2. And it's just, oh, so fun to see that because these are moms who are like, am I ever gonna be able to put my down.

Anouk:

Yeah.

Meredith Brough:

Am I ever gonna be able to sleep in my own bed again? So I do think that people could choose to to bed share because that feels right to them. And we just try to optimize sleep as best we can. And, you know, they chose that. So it's not like I would say it was bad or wrong or it's not gonna work for you.

Anouk:

Mhmm.

Meredith Brough:

And they were patient and their child just naturally needed space. So that's another thing that I see.

Anouk:

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's also something in some spaces in parenting. Bed sharing is is all all be all. And in other spaces, it's like, you never do that.

Meredith Brough:

Your I

Anouk:

think it's we need, like, a middle ground. It works for some kids. It works for some families. It doesn't it's not the solution, and it's not the devil your Either. It it just is one option in so many other option. It it we choose it. If it fits our needs, I can say my older one, It was no way to bed share with him. He was moving too much.

Anouk:

He was not sleeping well in our bed. And the 1st time we put him in our bed was because it was so your cold that night that it was cold. Like, I I was not able to warm him up if not in his own little crib. So we put it in our bed, but it lasted for, like, 2 weeks. And we put it back, and it's much better there.

Meredith Brough:

Yeah. Kids are like that too, and sometimes that happens in their lifetime. Like, I often see that around 10 to 12 months where kids are kinda pushing their parents away. You know? They want space. Your Yeah. Well, I I love what you're saying because I call myself middle ground or a bridge. So I'm a bridge your the bed sharing or attachment parenting style and the sleep training style. And middle ground is always safe.

Meredith Brough:

It's always just like, we're avoiding extremes, but also, your There are some principles from that world that I I think are good. And, you know, the holistic side is always good. And like I said, I help people foster independence instead of forcing it. And and some people in the the attachment side will say, but there's no proof that that works. There's no proof that that's your good. And, and they're the ones who are saying that all babies are the same in their way, which is nursing all night long and not being able to sleep for long periods. So they they can't really see my side. But for me, it's through experience that, your You know, I I worked with children in my daycare and my own 5 kids for 15 years, and then the last 6 years with hundreds over a1000 families.

Meredith Brough:

And I know that these principles work. So foster independence is is good as long as you do it in a healthy way. And some kids are ready for it, and you wait a little while. And it happens. That happens. So

Anouk:

Mhmm. Mhmm.

Meredith Brough:

We've heard

Anouk:

the same as forcing or, like, what we call sleep training, which it's a word that was canned and in a way of, like, it means letting baby cry so they policy, basically. But sleep training in itself is not a bad thing. It's just that it became something specific the sleep world.

Meredith Brough:

And with the term self soothing when that Yeah. Was coined and that began, it it meant We want these children to connect sleep cycles. And when parents hear self soothe, they think about having actual coping skills. They think your In in more adult terms, oh, well, that means my child can turn inward and calm themself. And when you learn about the nature of babies, your Actually, they can't. No. Even the easygoing ones, the difference between them and the more complicated, complex, needy babies your Is that these babies have, like, a built in healthy nervous system. It switches on enough when it's supposed to.

Meredith Brough:

Mhmm.

Anouk:

They

Meredith Brough:

don't get as worked up. They're just calmer. They're more cool and chill. Mhmm. But also the the really basic abilities of coping as a young baby would be just limited to sucking the thumb, turning away when overstimulated, or using their body in some way that's like rhythmic movement, something very relaxing to them.

Anouk:

Mhmm.

Meredith Brough:

Trying to express their feelings. That's about it. But when it comes to not feeling well, getting hurt, or being scared, your All babies rely on their parents for comfort.

Anouk:

Mhmm. They

Meredith Brough:

they co regulate. Yeah. You look at these other babies that are so, so your Sensitive and in tune with their bodies and what's going on with changes and how they feel, and they get worked up easily, and they can't calm down easily. Those babies need their parents a lot more, and there's actually studies that show that those babies gain a lot more from their parents. So there's, like, this direct relationship with my baby needs me a lot, and I'm investing my whole soul into taking care of them, But they're actually being affected more by their parents. And as time goes on, you see more of the resemblance. Like, my child's acting like me. My child got this from me.

Meredith Brough:

And And I'm really investing into them, and I'm actually seeing the results where the easy kids the parents just aren't having to do that. Your So interesting to to see that there's been studies done on this that you can tell that your hard work pays off. Isn't that cool?

Anouk:

Your I

Meredith Brough:

think that's one of the first things I tell my clients, and they're like, let me let that settle in a little bit. Get the letter. Because you know the message is you're spoiling your baby.

Anouk:

Yes.

Meredith Brough:

The message is this is your fault. But really, you're doing A damn good job. What you're doing for your child and all the thriving is because of you.

Anouk:

Yeah. And I would say that's something we always come back your like, basically, all discussion is that if parents are here, or listening to your podcast, or looking for clues and searching for information, they're doing the best job ever. Absolutely. As as soon as you're trying to be a good parents, you're a good parents. It's not, like, it's not a result. It's a process.

Meredith Brough:

Yeah. And and there was something that a therapist told me when my kids were younger that I don't have to be a perfect parent. I just have to your care. I just have to be. And and someone once said to me, well, that doesn't feel like that works for me because I feel like your Some kids need so much from us, so we can't can't serve them enough. We can't do enough. We can't be enough. And I'm like, I don't wanna hear that.

Meredith Brough:

I really don't because your I'm not gonna put this pressure on myself of being a superhero because I'm not capable.

Anouk:

No. And we won't ever be able to do it all. That's just not possible.

Meredith Brough:

Your. And so the point is is that what kids need is for you to keep trying and to keep caring and to keep changing and growing and being a better person. And, you know, that's a complex subject. But for me, it's just giving myself credit in the day that I did my best. Mhmm. And I love intensely, and I feel intensely and care intensely. And

Anouk:

Yeah.

Meredith Brough:

A child wouldn't thrive from that type of love and care. Right?

Anouk:

For sure. And Would you say for all the kids that are not babies if someone has? Because I think at some point, we stopped talking about sleep, your And that doesn't mean it it's over. As I said, I add 1. It took 6 years before she slammed to the 9. But your We don't talk about that because then the judgment is through the roof. And Yeah. I think that's the reality of a lot of people listening, that they might have older kids that are 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, even tween or teens do don't sleep. But, your Okay.

Anouk:

When we're on the teen years, it's another story completely because then you start not sleeping again for other reasons. But Yeah. Your Interesting. Subject for another day. But if you have chill children, I would say, like, 4 to 8 years old, for example, that sleep. But sleep is more difficult, that they still need you at night, that they wake up still, that they call, not necessarily every night, but More than once in a while. You know?

Meredith Brough:

I I would even go as far as saying, like, 2 on up, but people just don't talk about it. And True. There's no there's hardly any resources out there your I have an associate who focuses on children's sleep, and she has a very similar perspective and style That's me, and I love that. And so I can share share her name with you later. I actually work with kids up till 6 because after 6, I feel like it's really complicated. And I actually will talk to people. I have a free, intervention calls when I call it, or it's just a consult. Your Mhmm.

Meredith Brough:

And if someone has an older child often, just talk to them for free because I can usually pinpoint sleep disorders or ADHD or your Something health wise that's affecting these child children that they had no idea. So that's a really, really powerful thing to be able to point of parents towards the right resources. Maybe they have anxiety. Mhmm. They need a therapist, that sort of thing. So I'm not simplifying everybody's sleep problems that way, but I just find that very common. Before 6, I I have some similar principles that I focus on, like, how do we bridge separation? How do we give these kids your Confidence to feel safe at night. Let's use all the holistic principles possible.

Meredith Brough:

And a lot of it comes down to bedtime, your Sleep cues, being aware of when a child's tired, having a routine, and just, again, looking at these kids as individuals and what they need. Like, Gotta meet those needs.

Anouk:

Mhmm. And the the routine doesn't have to be the same. I feel that's something that we often see. Like, The routine needs to be exactly the same all the time. When we use you look at Pinterest or Instagram and you have, like, this is the routine that your child needs to follow in the evening. I need to play the bad and read a book and go it it doesn't always work.

Meredith Brough:

We don't wanna compare it to other people's routines is which is what I thought you were gonna your Start with because a routine doesn't matter that much. Like, from house to house, it can be completely different. Yep. It is very helpful if you Can keep it the same, and if you can keep it in the same order. That's that's a real principle. It it's it's holistic. It it helps the circadian rhythm work for you. It helps your Your child's brain recognize all these different cues.

Meredith Brough:

It's it's time to go to sleep. You know? Mhmm. But I think what you're talking about is the fact that your Some kids, they might have an aversion to bedtime. They might be very strong willed, and so we need them choices. Your So I what I usually do is there's there's pieces of the routine that that you can mix up, you know, like different number of books. Maybe we have playtime and that part is different. And so so as much as you can, try and keep things in the same order is good, but definitely mix things up your As to what what the activities are.

Anouk:

Mhmm.

Meredith Brough:

But there's a pediatric psychoaniatrist that I follow. She wrote an article about bedtime aversion. Your Is a real thing. Our kids will have an aversion to sleep or just bedtime routines in general. And her suggestion is to mix it up from night to night. So huge thing. It takes the pressure off and helps the kid relax and not mind. And so that's when you would do, like, your 1 night, we're having all these activities in the bath, and the next night, we're doing something playful with our imaginations, or maybe there's tents and there's, So she's she's all about making it fun too.

Meredith Brough:

So I really I share that article with parents all the time just in case they run into those troubles.

Anouk:

That's a good idea. Yeah. I I also love what you were saying. Routine is different your from one family to another. And I think that's very important too. And, also, I think some of our more intense children sometimes need to move before bedtime. Your That's right. Something that is never anywhere in typical routine that we see.

Anouk:

Like, some kids need to get out all all that energy.

Meredith Brough:

Your I know. That's huge. I'm actually seeing it more on Instagram lately from some of the holistic sleep consultants. And I'm so glad to see that because your For years years, I thought the same thing, and I I would teach my clients with spirited kids that they need to slow their babies' bodies down or their toddler or child. And that's true at some point because very active kids will go go go as long as you let them until they crash. It's totally true. Your But there's a a healthier way to approach this where you are giving these kids these physical activities throughout the day. That will help.

Meredith Brough:

Will help them with naps. It'll help them with their night sleep. And then sometime before dinner bedtime, which you actually have to experiment with the timing.

Anouk:

Your Yeah.

Meredith Brough:

Some kids might be an hour before your bedtime routine. Some kids might be right before it. Sometimes it's during the routine. Mhmm. But what you're looking for, when it comes to these activities during the day and right before bed is, just the rough and tumble play. So like your Climbing and crawling around and wrestling and, jumping and getting rolled up in a blanket and then unrolled and Swinging and hanging backwards. All those things build sleep pressure. Yeah.

Meredith Brough:

And, actually, if kids did more with their muscles, That's a really good way to improve sleep. Mhmm. It really, really wears kids out. What's great is if you can your Kinda intertwine the rough and tumble play with lots of outside time. Yes. With exposure to sun that releases serotonin, and serotonin breaks into melatonin. Mhmm. So it's there's so many natural ways to improve sleep.

Meredith Brough:

And I actually had a toddler your client. Once whose parents were like, I just cannot slow him down. There's nothing I can do. And I always tell parents like, you you know, right before they go to sleep, at least limit the space. You know, maybe it's being in your arms. Maybe it's being in the crib or something, and that can help them your Not be quite as active. But if kids like that, if you give them 10 or 15 minutes to be super active at the very beginning of the routine, I've seen some kids who are jumping on their bed and asleep 6 minutes later. It's kinda crazy.

Meredith Brough:

And I

Anouk:

think that's still not in the common been guilty of that. I have a child. I have 2 of those, in fact. They would benefit from movement at the end of the day. And when my older one was little when my husband was doing that, I was like, don't do that. You're gonna excite them, and he's not gonna sleep ever. And I I feel it's so in the common knowledge, and we always see that. We hear that.

Anouk:

But it's not true for all children. Some children need that excitement just before they can fall asleep, and they will crash. Boom.

Meredith Brough:

Your But do understand that there are kids I think very typical kids, if you, give them any type of activities that, include their their legs. So like walking, running, jumping, all that sort of thing is just kind of like a way to deep rejuvenating energy. Mhmm. Actually, a teacher told me that that's something that they teach at school. And so when they do, like, activities at school, they're trying to just use the arms and the upper body So that they're not getting the kids all hyped up and and too active to be in the classroom sitting. You know? But but all kids need to move periodically throughout the day. And you have permission. If you sense this about your child that this this works, don't think you're doing something wrong or You have, like, these parenting ways that are weird or crazy.

Meredith Brough:

Like, no. There's science here too.

Anouk:

Your Mhmm. Mhmm. And I think that's important because it's something that is often missed. And it's not for all children. Like, some children, it will make them impossible to go to bed. But for thumb. It's necessary, and we don't do it because we feel it's not the way to go. So I love that your I think the message that I hearing the most from you is it depends.

Anouk:

Each children are different and child is different, and we need to adjust the sleep routine and the tips your To sleep and to their reality. Like, who they are and what they need, which is what I always say for everything in parenting, thing. And it definitely also applies to sleep. So I really love that.

Meredith Brough:

I hope you don't mind me just mentioning this as a side note. I was talking about Fostering independence and teaching little kids how to fall asleep on their own. I barely mentioned it, but I I actually have 8 methods that I use your for teaching this. And I have tear free methods, and I just want to point out that it's not that tears are bad and it's a totally normal way of expressing oneself and communicating. So it's not that tears are bad. It's just that I found that some kids cooperate better when they feel very peaceful and happy. Your And I'm a huge advocate for making the bedroom feel like a safe, happy place that they love. Mhmm.

Meredith Brough:

So that's where that comes from. But what I was saying is that each child has different needs when it comes to the way they fall asleep and the way the routine looks. And that's why I have so many methods. Your And it's not it's not always, like, just a preference. This is how these children progress. It is the only way. And Yeah. People will use cry it out your For weeks, for hours at night, and it will just scream or sleep worse, or they just feel awful and it doesn't get them anywhere.

Meredith Brough:

If you've been through something like that, then you need something different. You need an approach that's more subtle and slow moving. And, your You know what I said about fostering security and independence and trust and all these things. So

Anouk:

Mhmm. Mhmm. And I think that's interesting because it also respects the parents' need, the the way you're talking about it. Because, like, the extreme of attachment parenting is all about the child, and the extreme of sleep training is all about the the parent, basically. Like, the parent needs to sleep, but we need we both have needs. Yes. Your And an an exhausted parent is not a good parent because we're exhausted. So some days we are bad parents because we are exhausted, and sense.

Anouk:

But if it's every day, all the time because we don't sleep, it's a problem.

Meredith Brough:

Yeah. Exactly.

Anouk:

So I think it's great that it here's a like, It's just not waiting for that child to sleep one day maybe. And I I would say that's what I did with my second one because I had no clue because I wasn't in that world of in between. There's that's that option, that option. And I won't let cry because it's not working anyway, and I I I knew it was not the right solution for her. But at the same time, we didn't slept for years. And, gladly, I don't need a lot of sleep, but it was still affecting us. You know? So I love that it's possible now to reconcile all of that and find solution to help kids' self suit at some point. But with I

Meredith Brough:

call it self settled. That way, we're not mixed up. Your Yeah. Want is what we want them to be able to fall asleep. And and, actually, sleep training usually involves the nighttime, and I don't do that. I only have parents work on bedtime and nap times because I feel like that's giving them some skills that then will just translate at night where they start to connect sleep cycles when they feel well. Mhmm. And other people think that's a mixed message.

Meredith Brough:

That's confusing to the baby. I'm like, no. They're so your, they're so smart. They know, and they have different needs at night and parents should be able to respond intuitively and follow their heart and be connected with their child. That's exactly what babies and young children need. So Mhmm. By all means, keep doing it. You're you're onto something.

Anouk:

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's something that is so hard to do because we're so told so many mixed message to follow our instinct. Should be simple, but it's not.

Meredith Brough:

Your Yeah. And that's a big thing that I focus on in my work too. If you're looking at any of my resources, you're gonna find more about your intuition, your instinct, trusting your instincts. I think it's so important.

Anouk:

Yeah. For sure. Is there anything we didn't touch on that you wanted to share? Your

Meredith Brough:

No. Well, actually, I was thinking a minute ago when you were talking about being this middle ground is that when I created my sleep approach name, your Baby centered. That felt so right. And it took me, like, 5 years to figure that out. And I love it so much, but it's Funny because when I was talking to a a friend about it, I said, I wish I could call it baby centered, mom centered. So I love that you brought that up a 2nd ago because your I am very much focused on the mother too, but I'm just not putting it all on the mother. Mhmm. I definitely put your Most of it on the baby.

Meredith Brough:

You know what I mean? The baby's needs and being focused on the baby, but you have to see yourself and your own needs and recognize that you need To take care of yourself. Sleep is the top of the list, but in other ways as well. Mhmm. We don't just sacrifice ourselves, which I think is really normal for women to do when it comes to sleep, Just sacrifice ourselves because we're like, well, there's nothing else, you know, and no other option for me. So Yeah. You said that well.

Anouk:

Thank you. That was yeah. That's a great, way to frame it. You touched on a few resource earlier, but I don't know if there's something specific that would you would like to share with the community, like, resource that you find useful or were useful for you when your kids were little?

Meredith Brough:

Your Oh, some of my favorite resources. Well, what's funny about that is that some of the resources I used, I wouldn't use now.

Anouk:

Yeah. I I mean, life. The 1st to tell me that.

Meredith Brough:

Like, my kids are 15 to 23, and my oldest is a a dad. And it's just so funny. But, your Honestly, I love learning what's out there now. You know? I really love, what's her name? Your There's a on Instagram, I think it's called highly sensitive family. Her name's Natalie, and I can't remember her last name. Your, but I love her channel. I love her resources. She has an email that goes out and she does beautiful, beautiful your reels and posts.

Meredith Brough:

And she's just amazing. She talks about being highly sensitive and what it's like for her kids to be that way. Your Another one would be Brooke Weinstein, and she's on Instagram too. She t talks about burnout, and it's not just work burnout. It's like your Regulation. All of us in this entire world struggle with our nervous systems being dysregulated, and your We're burnout because of all the exposure to social media and constant stimulation and the fast paced world. So I really love her resources. Again, amazing reels.

Meredith Brough:

She has a podcast. Those are probably my 2 favorite. And like I said,

Anouk:

you changed a lot. The resources changed a lot since the last, like, 10, 15, 20 years. Your some books were around for decades, and now they're getting outdated because there are so many new things. And it it's changing very fast.

Meredith Brough:

Your Yeah. But it's based on research, and that's what I love. Mhmm.

Anouk:

Like, to

Meredith Brough:

hear what actually works when it comes to parenting. Oh, man. I wish I had that stuff back your Big time.

Anouk:

Yes. And and it's weird because research on children development is not that old. Like, it it's not something that was done that long. Like, in the seventies, we started really doing those research. And even much more recently than that, we thought that babies didn't felt pain. Like, how weird is it now?

Meredith Brough:

I know. Give me a break. Oh, some sad things. Yeah. And, like, Sleep Train, Cry It Out, Furber, those those were created by men, and they may have worked with children and parents, but they weren't studying your No. They they didn't they maybe through experimenting and and, you know, they were saying behaviors and stuff like that. But they did not understand the nature or the needs of babies, and everything is completely geared towards what parents want. So it's.

Anouk:

Yes. Your Yes. Outside of the house at some point. Because before that, there was no no cry aloud. Like, moms were just taking care of the child. But when women started working out of the house, your then it became a problem because everyone needed to work and sleep at night. Exactly. Yep.

Anouk:

Your And

Meredith Brough:

that hasn't changed in society's approach in America not really having maternity leave, and Mhmm. We don't have our our family unit around us a lot of your those needs are still there. And that is another reason why I do what I do.

Anouk:

Yeah. I would say here, we're we're lucky for that. We now have almost a year long, like, parental parental leave. It's 3 months of maternity, but we can share the parental leave between the parents. But, yeah, it can go up to almost a year. So it makes a huge difference in the way we can care for our kids because we don't have both to go to work.

Meredith Brough:

Yeah. That's really great. I love that. I'm so happy. Someday it'll change here.

Anouk:

Your I hope so. So where can people find you if they need support for their children to sleep?

Meredith Brough:

I would start with my past. That's the sweet slumber podcast. The first 30 something episodes are very focused towards parents. And now that I have a sleep coach school. And I work with sleep coaches to mentor them. I'm just kind of mixing in other episodes about my work and about women changing your The 9 to 5 in the corporate world to to work for themselves. Because I I'm big on that movement, so you'll find that too if that's something that interests you. Your And then also my Instagram, I'm very active in YouTube.

Meredith Brough:

So you'll find me. It's just the sweet slumber podcast or sweet slumber time is a handle that you'll find.

Anouk:

Your Right.

Meredith Brough:

And I have a discount code for your listeners to get 10% off any of my programs, including my sleep coach training. Intensity is the code.

Anouk:

Yay. So we'll put everything in the show notes so that people can find you, your your podcast and all your support and the the code also. So that if they wanna work with you, they'll they'll get that 10% off. That's great. Thank you. Your so I'm really glad to have talked about sleep with you today because I think it's a very big, big topic. So thank you for being here.

Meredith Brough:

Thank you. It was really fun. Great conversation. Happy to help. Your

Anouk:

I'm so glad you joined me today and took that time out of your intense life to focus on finding a new way to parent that works for you and your kids. To get the episodes at Soon as They Drop, make sure to subscribe to the podcast. Your and please left a rating and review so other parents can find it too. Also, check out all the free resources on my website at familymoments.ca your so you can take action on what's the most important for you right now. And take a deep breath. Keep going. Your we're all in this together.

Meredith Brough:

Your